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I don't know about your games but everytime I play my Genestealers with EC they get hit with weapons that are AP 4 or less anyways. I always end up feeling like I wasted the points, but whenever I put ST on them and they reach combat I totally kill the enemy no matter who they are! So why do so many of you put EC in stead of ST?
Probably they get to play against opponents who don't fill up on AP4 weapons. I have a similiar issue. It seems nothing fired that comes my way is anything worse than AP4. I'd rather take the ST personally as the EC doesn't make a bit of difference for me here. I think there was once in the past 8 months that I got to roll a save with my genestealers from shooting. I was quite shocked.
With that said, I'm sure there's someone out there who doesn't field nothing but AP4 weapons that it would actually be worth it.
As for the ST, many are of the opinion that too many attacks means your genestealers can't "stick" to a unit. IE: they kill the entire unit and leave themselves out in the open to get shot up in your opponents turn.
I think it depends on who you fight and how smart they are. I think if somebody is always zapping your Genestealers with AP4 weapons then they have got it in for them. How you use Genestealers and most Tyranids is highly debatable. If you are getting the best use out of your scything talons then i suggest that you focus on them.
Basically it is about style, some people like to be hard to kill others like to be very choppy. I think that scything talons can be very useful. It also depends on an opponent. If an opponent tends to choose a target and then exterminate it before looking for another, then they will destroy carpace-stealers.
This is just because they are being careful. More opportunistic players tend to go for easy kills and avoid the ones with better saves.
Basically if you like scything talons you should go with them. You clearly feel you are getting results. And it is true, Genestealers with scything talons are very nasty. I personally bhave a brood with scything talons and extended carapace.
out of all the armies I verse IG is the only ones I get a save maybe, but then they have that Ord blast and there goes that.... but yeah thanks for the posts.
I like EC on my genestealers because I tend to go against a lot of space marine opponents and if I didn't have my genestealers with EC let would be killed by space marine bolters without any armor saves easily. I guess it also depends on what opponent you go up against and I guess through what your saying is that scything talons are a more effective biomorph than EC.
My general feeling is that even armor 4 is not all that durable against massed bolter fire, which is the type of thing it gives you a save against you wouldn't normally have. Keep your genestealers in cover and they get an invulnerable save for free.
This same logic applies to almost any Tyranid armor situation. Keep them in cover = free invulnerable save.
Scything talons = more attacks at what is almost always the highest initiative. It's the way to go. If you're going to use as expensive and relatively fragile a unit Genestealers are at all in the first place, you'd darned well better be smart enough to keep them from getting shot at REGARDLESS of their save. Additionally, due to the way unit sizes and rending and toughness work, genestealers are generally best suited to attacking smaller MEQ-type squads, and not massive squads of things like guardsmen who can hurt them back if they have guys up after the impact. You use the monstrous creatures against things like guardsmen, genestealers against things like death company or assault marines. As a result, you're really not going to be letting things hit you back in melee either, so the lack of a 4+ save is still not an issue.
Personally, I've played around with genestealers on a number of occasions but I do not believe they reliably earn their points back, and I am a min-maxer. 3 spinegaunts are always better than 1 genestealer un-upgraded, and cost less ... other things in my lists accomplish the same things the stealers would for better value and better force chart location.
Regardless of that personal opinion, ST > EC, largely b/c I think offensively and not defensively. I affirm that I would not allow any genestealers I run to be caught in the open and exposed to large quantities of fire, nor would I engage them in massive bog-down combats, rendering any real value of extended carapace moot. More attacks are better.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
I have been running EC on my genies because my local food is generally too canny to set up troops within charge range of decent cover, because I do use my stealers as bait to force the food to make tough target priority decisions, and because I find a 50% chance for the genies to save vs non power weapon wounds in cc is also psychologically valuable.
But I also run balanced lists where the primary cc force is hormies, raveners, winged warriors and a winged HT, so I have room to experiment with ST genies and a little subtlety...
No matter what you do or how you reason it, stealers just aren't that resilient for what you pay ... might as well learn to keep them alive through craftier means than a 50/50 armor save and give them extra attacks for when they do get in ... if you're going to pay extra for them at all.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
I have to argue against you there MVBrandt. In your comparison of gaunts versus stealers, I think you are really looking at it quite narrowly. I'm not arguing against your're experience because what works for you works, but you can't really say that stealers are comparable to gaunts.
I use stealers because they can always accomplish something. They can assist gaunts in cc, kill tanks which gaunts can't do, kill characters and kill basic men. They are just a very versitile unit, so I don't think that it can be said that 3 spine gaunts will accomplish more than 1 stealer because of how many different situations can arrise.
On the EC vs SC arguement, realisticly, how many AP 4 weapons are there? I can't think of a ton (DH daemon killing weapons, hellhounds, and autocannons) and after that, if they are shooting AP 3 or up at the stealers, it seems a little silly. Anyway, aproximately half the players are marines I believe. Added to that there are Chaos, Tau, Guardians and several other common units that all have AP 5 guns. That is a lot of guns that I'd rather have a 4+ save from if they do get shot than have no save. I just see it as insurrance because as we know, you can't count on having cover in every situation. It just isn't possible to always be protected. I guess Brandt, this is where our opinions differ, since I prefer them to be more likely to survive than to kill more.
Originally Posted by The Paint Monkey
I go up against a lot of guard, orcs, chaos and marines. I find the 4+ save to be invaluable, no matter what there will be times when someone gets the jump on me, i make a mistake and so on and that 4+ save will save me half the time.
Not to mention the close combat phase, where if i did everything right, there will still be people hitting back at me, and that 4+ save is insurance.
My stealers rarely have to worry about AP4 shots coming their way, w/ordinance usually being directed at my monstrous creatures and synapse, while ap2 weapons go for tyrants. AP4 weapons will always be a problem, but they go for my warriors, or due to their high rate of fire are directed at my spine gaunt swarm.
Still, if you are getting nice results out of ST on stealers, then go for it! Its hard to argue w/ results.