Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Greetings all. Im still fairly new to the hobby. I did a lot of looking in to Tyranids, and while I love the concept, I really feel like I cannot make the army I want.
I want a swarming cc army of doom. Like im sure many Nid players do as well. But I cant seem to justify some choices, the aesthetics start getting lost compared to what is effective.
I cant stand shooty fexes. But I see a strong need for them in most balanced lists, on paper, theyre great. But they dont get to use that awesome club tail. And since they probably wont see CC till the Pfist is in their face, lots of the other upgrades go out was well. I could live with this, the Fex doesnt have a major place in my swarm. (He's crazy! No fexes!)
But the same goes for the winged HT. Those Scything Talons look amazing, but we all know that twin devourers, in the end, probably cause more wounds. But it looks ridiculous.
I love genestealers and gaunts. Stealers are expensive, though, and you want to shield them with the gaunts. So I dont make the gaunts as tough, keep em as spinegaunts. So now I have some numbers, but theyre fodder. And then draw from the Horde some to get a few raveners, because theyre great. And then a few Zoanthropes for synapse.
See what happened there? My swarm just became a balanced list.
For all the rending and scything talons, I cant help but feel that the Tyranids have become fairly shooty. One needs anti-tank. One needs some units to take down that Monolith, or catch those skimmers.
To truly make the swarm, it seems id need to stick with large groups of gaunts and hormogaunts, some warriors for hqs, and some stealers...now I look better, but im going to be shot to pieces, arent I?
How do you veteran hive minds cope with restraining yourself to shooting?
Is there hope outside of Apocalypse for an effective swarm?
Now, I know many of you will say 'make the army you want, then worry about winning'. Ive tried. And I cant do it.
All I want to do is bury my enemies alive under the bodies of my dead.
Now I belive those bodies are going to have to be green!
Well, here's the general feeling I have about things.
For one, I don't think Tyranid armies, fluffwise, should be or are a swarming CC army of doom. If you want one anyway, that's fine, but you're ENTIRELY unfluffy.
The Tyranid army is, quite surprisingly and by the fluff, balanced. Lots of little gribblies lead the way and eat the bullets (all the better to digest them in the reco pools). Lictors and Raveners get all sneaky and rendy in small numbers. A few packs of genestealers weave their way in and among the swarm ... sometimes ... most often the main Tyranid army is genestealer-FREE ... they usually are present BEFORE the war, sowing terror etc. Warriors are ubiquitous, providing synapse coverage and more often than not seen shooting. OTHER than a vanguard genestealer-only force, a Tyranid army without warriors is fluff-wise UNHEARD OF. Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes are the shock beasts, not really fluffed out as the synapse nodes (tyrants) or close combat gribblies (fexes), but seen as the overall big tough hard to kill "killshot" guys. Sometimes they might be wandering biogun platforms, sometimes they might be whirling balls of spikey death ... depends on what the Hive Mind felt needed to be spit out of the genepool for the occasion. Hierophants and other things tower over the mess. Gargoyles and spore mines rain from the heavens.
Think of it like an Imperial Guard army, but organic. You can't imagine the guard without tanks ... how can you imagine the bugs without BIG bugs? Also, almost always in the fluff, vast waves of organic ammunition start flying out at the opponent once the critters get close. This is effectively mirrored by a high quantity of blast-marker and/or high rate of fire, short ranged assault guns (12" spinefists/fleshborers, 18" devourers, 24" deathspitters, 36" venom cannons and barbed stranglers). None of it is very penetrating ... some of it may hit really hard, but it's more about quantity of fire for purpose than effect per bullet ... this all fits in with the fluff.
So, the question becomes - why do you want a close combat only 'Nid army that is swarmy and big critter-less? Just because? Because you think that's cool? Those are fine reasons ... and yeah, you're not necessarily going to be as competitive as a shooty 'Nid list, for the primary reason I'll give later.
BUT are you looking at this because you think somehow a swarmy cc nid list is FLUFFY and you want to respect the lore? If THAT is your logic, please for the love of God rethink it, b/c you're mistaken as to what 'Nid fluff really is (IMO).
Competitiveness-wise, here's the issue:
Basic Tyranid stats are SUPERIOR for close combat. Take a gaunt - marine initiative, guard stats tough/wound wise, fleet, fearless (basically), with either a twin-linked assault weapon or a re-roll wound s4 assault weapon. For, in the case of a spinegaunt, FIVE POINTS. Let's triple that and compare it to a marine. The marine gets 1 attack at S4 with T4 and a 3+ save, and has only one wound before he dies. He can't fleet. He isn't fearless. He cannot fire and assault, because his weapon is rapid fire. He has 2 attacks on the charge. Three spinegaunts are THREE wounds, fleet, fearless, have 3 attacks (6 on the charge), if they pan out their move so they don't need to fleet they are really 9 attacks (3 shots, 3 attacks, +3 for charging) on the charge. They are just as durable as a marine when you keep them in cover, and move through cover to boot. Guess what ... the spinegaunts are better EVERY SINGLE TIME point for point ... better than the Imperium's finest. Lafforz. Believe it or not, genestealers are mathematically FAR less valuable than spinegaunts, and that's actually proveable.
You can use this logic for almost any Tyranid. Point for point, they're REALLY good in close combat ALREADY. Here's the cool thing. If you spend every single upgrade point on SHOOTY, they are ... guess what ... JUST as good still in close combat! Sure, you can spend the points on close combat bugs and close combat upgrades instead and be even BETTER in close combat, but now you're just better at what you were already plenty good enough at.
You may know all this, you write well enough that you are probably a decently educated, intelligent fellow. The way this veteran hive mind copes with restraining myself to shooting is the flat out fact that I LOVE it. I'm better than everybody else at close combat anyway, b/c I have the speed and impact force to kill things in close if I want to / have to. I keep 6 raveners split across my 3 fast choices for a big 30 rending-attacks-on-the-charge 19-24" charging punch in case I need it ... I have tons of little bugs and about 100 models in my primary 2k list, and I have 5 big bugs too. In a 2k list I've got 12 warriors, 2 tyrants, 2 tyrant guard, 3 big sniperfexes, 6 raveners, 60 spinegaunts ... what's not to love? I throw tons and tons of bullets out (over 130 / turn) and re-roll everything, giving more of the impression of TONS of bullets that I see the Tyranid fluff having, and I can still absolutely roll over enemies in close combat by applying large numbers of armor save ignoring and simply little mass attacking quantities at whatever section of the enemy line I want. Plus, if I make a tactical error and get caught in the open with my army for a turn, I've got the wounds and cheap cost per model to take a hit on the chin better than a Necron in rez orb range with a monolith nearby.
If I limited myself to JUST a close combat, no-big-critter swarmy list, I'd feel like I wasn't taking advantage of either the Tyranid fluff OR the vast potential of the Tyranid army list. I've got everything, I can out shoot any army on the table top, and I can break them in half in close combat. It's fantastic. I urge you to embrace it
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
Some ways to prevent from being shot and still be a bit more cc than shooty is
1. employ a broodlord: He can infiltrate and with his stats and genestealers he is a nasty customer; one con though is that he can't fleet so be sure to hug cover.
2. Have winged tyranids: A winged Hive tyrant with scything talons is one scary thing on the table and with wings he is fast.. Also some winged tyranid warriors can be scary as well as well as keeping synapse in check. The con with this is wings are hard to come by for tyranids as well as hard to put on. Look at Warhammer for wing choices or make it yourself with green stuff.
3. Have some deep-strike units: Ravenors are an especially good cc unit and are good at supporting the guants in cc and gargoyles are an amazing brood to deep strike. However Deep-strike in cover as you can't assault when you deep-strike and gargoyles are both expensive and hard to put together because they are made of metal.
I hope these comments have helped you with your dilemma8Y!
Very much so, thanks guys ;Y
I second what MVB said.
As for Saromek's points:
1. In case you can't Infiltrate, the BLord + retinue is as slow as a 'Fex or a walking Tyrant, which will screw you over with purely CC.
2. Winged is fast, just remember that Warriors will die to Bolters and Tyrant to MisLnchers (unless you spend on Warp Field), so stick to cover until you can guarantee assault.
3. Don't Deep Strike unless you have a really good plan... And probably not even then unless you have a Trygon. =)
The Raveners and Gargs are both rather fast units, and can usually easily reach the opponent even without DSing. Furthermore, by deploying normally they'll be affecting your opponent's decisions from the beginning of the game which is IMO easier to play against them than hoping for DS to surprise them at a convenient point (for you) in the game.
If you want an effective CC Monster in addition to the Winged 2xScyTal Tyrant (it is good, even if not mathematically equal to the 2xTL Devo variant), get yourself the aforementioned Trygon... It's a bargain for its effectiveness, and probably one of the best FW Tyranids out there both model- and ruleswise (at least IMO).
I'd also like to point out a historical tidbit: Back in 2ndEd, when the Carnifex was a bony lump with a grinning mouth and four massive talons, it still wasn't purely CC... 2ndEd Bio-Plasma had a range equaling the current VCannon and at least most of the punch as well (Codex has been packed away for tomorrow's move so can't check now).
Thus 'Fexes have always been about heavy support, whether ranged or CC. It just happens that in the 3rd and 4thEd incarnations they've been massively more useful in ranged support capacities... Which is also due the fact that they've become comparably slower and their CC stats have gone down. Back in 2nd they were much better in HtH and were also faster than basic SM, for example.
But yeah, the Tyranids have always been about adaptability, and never a pure CC swarm. Even the first Termagaunts in Rogue Trader (called Hunter-Slayers back then) had ranged weapons, so the "pure CC" misconception probably stems from having watched too much movies.
Think about it this way: If the Colonial Marines hadn't had to go into the complex in "Aliens", they would've probably killed every single one of the 120+ Aliens and with relatively few casualties had the things rushed them. In settings with advanced ranged weaponry, pure CC only works in close confines, not in a semi-open battlefield unless you can reach your opponent before they can shoot you to bits.
As MVB said, feel free to play a mostly CC swarm... But be aware that you are handicapping yourself. Perhaps if you get constantly wiped out, you could try to convince your opponents to play with more terrain from time to time so as to give you a better chance at winning? They of course won't do so every time, but any half-sensible player should understand that even their opponents should have fun time playing. Of course, they'll also probably be quick to point out that you're handicapping yourself.
Good luck nevertheless!
"The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all biomatter consumed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be devoured."
I agree with most of it. Since I run a swarm by choice because it is fun and I do well.
I would call my army a balanced swarm listed. You need some shooting and cc. I used my
gs,raveners and warriors for cc only. I used rest army for both. sniper fexs, machine gun fexs fleshgaunts for shooitng and tie up units. Gargoyles are very good. Good at getting to units shooting them and tie them up. Hive tryants walking or flying your choice but shooting is way good for me. I used broodlord since I like the model but it is much harder to make it work.
I feel if you run a cc mostly army you will need speed. Then get hormagaunts, genestealers(maybe scuttler), raveners, gargoyles, flying warriors, flying hive tyrant and lictors
Anyway goodluck and goodhunting with your army
Last edited by bonekrusher; January 6th, 2008 at 21:52.