"Always Strikes First" - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Member Toloran's Avatar
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    37 (x1)

    "Always Strikes First"

    I had a lengthy argument with another player the other day over this which (in the end) decided the game in his favor:

    The argument was over whether the wyche combat drugs effect "Always Strikes First" really means "Always Strikes First."

    Situation: I'm in cover and have the above effect active. He charges me with his squad who has frag grenades. His claim is that they both go at the same time, I say mine go first.

    His side: Models in cover have initiative 10 when charged by things not in cover. Frag grenades make the attacker go at initiative 10 as well. Since "always strike first" really means "strike at initiative 10" it means they both go at the same time because the highest you can go is initiative ten. His grounds for saying "they strike at initiative 10" instead of just "first" is because the DE codex is old, it hasn't be updated to the new wording which would say "strikes at initiative 10." (like the Eldar was changed, supposedly, he didn't have an eldar codex to show me this though).

    My side: The ability says "Always strike first." Not "Strikes first except for frag grenades." or other situations. The only time this would have an exception is when you deal with two abilities that specifically say "always strike first" (Eldar have something relating to this in their codex, it was clarified in their FAQ that when two abilities say go first, you roll a d6 to decide). So yeah, he is going at initiative ten, but I am going that itty bit faster.


    Anyone have anything to add to this? Specifically any rules material that I can point out to clarify this?


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  3. #2
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    Hi,
    “Always strikes first” is the highest rank in initiative possible as compared to Frag grenades that only strike at initiative 10. “Always strikes first” does not equal initiative 10, it exceeds it.

    The only way models strike at the same time is if they have the same initiative values and in this case they clearly don’t. This classed as striking simultaneously and I did not think that any D6 was involved. At the moment I can’t see where it is included in the V4 Eldar FAQ

    The age of the Codex does not matter if it is the most current – it could be 200 years old but if it’s the most recent then it’s the one to follow.

    You have the correct interpretation here, always strikes first plays exactly as described and is only ever equaled by another always strikes first

    Further the Frag grenades only effect the attackers, making them the equal of normal defenders in cover (init. 10 vs init. 10) but you have paid the points for an upgrade that allows you to go one step further. Frag boosts the attacker and does not effect the defender in any way.

    For a written reference on this please refer to page 14 in the DE Codex under the heading of Combat Drugs, option D –Always strikes first, regardless of cover or weapons. And it is accepted that any current Codex will override the BGB.

    Cheers.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

  4. #3
    0!=1jumpin'punch'swing jONESIE's Avatar
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    103 (x3)

    I have to agree with you Toloran, seems plain and simple to me

    Wicky's nailed it 8X
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaffar_Hasad
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  5. #4
    Nightlord frozencore's Avatar
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    255 (x6)

    Always strikes first means always. You guys are right on.

  6. #5
    Slaaneshi Battle Barge CO
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    127 (x5)

    Would ASF apply if your wyches were charging targets in cover and didn't have grenades?

  7. #6
    0!=1jumpin'punch'swing jONESIE's Avatar
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    103 (x3)

    ASF is what it is- reguardless of the situation, always is always So yep, you'd hit before the terain inhabitants, even without grenades
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaffar_Hasad
    You need more Mordians?
    They still exist?
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  8. #7
    Dark Eldar Gerbil Splata's Avatar
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    159 (x5)

    "Always strikes first"

    It is what it says

    Always.

    whether you are charging someone in cover.
    whether they are charging you and have frag grendaes.
    whether they have a thing that lowers I.

    Always.

    It doesn't mention init and until we get an update (sorely needed, at least a GOOD faq) it is what it says.
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  9. #8
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    OK,
    perhaps it can be viewed this way, initiative in the BGB only exists in a models profile (page 12) with level 1 being the least effective up to level 10 being the most the most effective.

    Frag grenades will only give the allowable maximum in the BGB, that of level 10.

    The Codex steps beyond these levels by bypassing the numbers system with an “always strikes first.” It doesn’t rely upon a numbering structure to give a level of initiative and can be ever be equaled with another Codex based ruling stating the same.

    Cheers.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

  10. #9
    Slaaneshi Battle Barge CO
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    127 (x5)

    Thanks for clarification. It would seem a simple enough conclusion that 'always' means 'always', but considering the way some of GW's rules are written and the way I've seen some of them interpreted, one can never* be too sure.


    * In this case, 'never' should be taken to mean 'most of the time'.

  11. #10
    Senior Member omegoku's Avatar
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    216 (x7)

    I'm pretty sure this is in the BGB.
    It said somewhere anywhere it says 'Always strikes last' read Init 1
    and 'Always strikes first' is Init. 10

    All the old codexes with Powerfists/claws used always strikes last, but the rulebook says they strike at init 1.
    Same thing happened when a unit of Ork Bikers (3rd edition codex) charged a squad of Wyches. They both 'always go first' due to their respective rules.

    No value can go over 10 (except S D weapons in Apoc) in 40k system.
    So get your Wyches out of cover and CHARGE!

    Alas I am at work and can't reference a page..
    Arch Overfiend & Grand Despot
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