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  1. #1
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    Help! Nid tactics needed against GW Staff Chaos list...

    Hiya!

    I need help beating a 750 point Chaos list with my 'nids. This is serious business - the opponent is one of my local GW store staff whereas I'm a painter, not a gaming vet! :-)

    [The staff member at my local store - Elliot, a really nice guy - is moving to the main "Battle Bunker" store in the Sydney CBD. As a farewell event, his current store is hosting an Elliot-versus-the-world day this weekend - 750 points matches against all comers.]

    Anyway - I need to fight the following list - any suggestions on tactics? It would be very cool to win boasting rights against him...

    Elliot's Dastardly Forces of Chaos:

    HQ
    Daemon Prince Tepoticus Maximus 110
    Daemon Wings (Modelled as many long mechanical legs!)

    TROOPS
    Squad FURY (8 FURIOUS Chaos Space Marines) 175
    Aspiring Champion Magarnigon
    Powerfist
    Plasmagun

    Rhino Transport
    Daemonic Posession 55

    Squad ANGRY (8 ANGRY Chaos Space Marines) 165
    Aspiring Champion Hellboy
    Powerfist
    Flamer

    HEAVY SUPPORT
    ‘KONG!’ The Defiler 150
    ‘Tiny’, The Obliterator 75

    TOTAL 750


    Andrew's Voracious Tyranid Horde (Nids FTW!):


    HQ: Hive Tyrant (1#, 188 Pts)
    1 Toxic Venom-Devil Tyrant @ 188 Pts
    Adrenal Glands WS; Enhanced Senses; Extended Carapace; Toxin Sacs; Twin-linked Devourer (x1); Venom Cannon; Psychic Scream; Synapse Creature; The Horror

    HQ: Broodlord (8#, 213 Pts)
    1 Broodlord @ 213 Pts
    Flesh Hooks; Rending Claws; Scything Talons; Synapse Creature
    7 Genestealers @ [140] Pts
    Extended Carapace; Rending Claws

    Troops: Gaunt Brood (8#, 40 Pts)
    8 Spinegaunts @ 40 Pts
    Spinefists

    Troops: Gaunt Brood (8#, 40 Pts)
    8 Spinegaunts @ 40 Pts
    Spinefists

    Troops: Hormagaunts (8#, 80 Pts)
    8 Hormagaunts @ 80 Pts
    Scything Talons

    Heavy Support: Carnifex (1#, 188 Pts)
    1 Sniperfex @ 188 Pts
    Enhanced Senses; Extended Carapace; Reinforced Chitin; Barbed Strangler; Venom Cannon

    Total: 749 points
    ---

    I'm happy to change my lineup if advised.

    I have two battle boxes:
    • 16 spinegaunts;
    • 16 hormagaunts;
    • 16 genestealers;
    • 6 warriors - 3 already modeled as CC, 3 disassembled;
    • 2 Carnies - one listed, one still disassembled;
    • a Hive Tyrant (listed);
    • Brood Lord (also listed); plus
    • a bunch of additional genestealers (from the MacCragge set).
    That's it at this stage, sadly. :-)

    I've asked him to specify obliterator weapons and choose mission type - will update post if/when that info comes in.

    Regardless - any help greatly appreciated!

    Thanks in advance.
    Regards,
    Andrew.

    Last edited by jONESIE; February 1st, 2008 at 13:45. Reason: pts costs and rules =)

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Xilconic's Avatar
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    obliterator weapons = a weapon all in one, featuring weapons for everything a commander ever needs.

    You could let him come to you, using your Gunfex and Tyrant to take out the defiler. If he fleets his Delifer, make sure you shoot the thing to pieces, since it could easily end you HT of your Fex.

    His deamon prince has to get in CC to be scary, and you just make sure you have your Broodlord alive when he gets to close, to make the Genies do rend a tear on him.
    You could use gaunts to delay him, if needed.

    FURY is probably stayin away, and shooting from around 18'' or so.
    ANGRY will probably assault. Don't fear the flamer too much, just space your models, and will lose only 2 or something like that. You could use the fex and HT to take out the transport too, hopefully pinning the units or at least force that to leave the tank, which make them slower.

    Keep your units together, but not too close to unvite Battle Cannon splattering across your ranks.

    good luck! ;Y
    Last edited by Xilconic; February 1st, 2008 at 19:06. Reason: Rules and stuff correction
    Tyranids Win [31]/ Draw [0]/Lost [0]
    Daemon Hunters Win [17]/ Draw [2]/ Lost [1]
    http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...t&uniqueid=232

  4. #3
    0!=1jumpin'punch'swing jONESIE's Avatar
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    Hey Chief! Welcome to LO!

    We can't post point costs or rules of anykind, stats etc as it breaks GW copywright. Also, as you are asking for help, responders will know what all the upgrades are 8Y
    Last edited by jONESIE; February 1st, 2008 at 14:17.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaffar_Hasad
    You need more Mordians?
    They still exist?
    LO RULES

  5. #4
    Charitably Tables People MVBrandt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kajh View Post
    Elliot's Dastardly Forces of Chaos:

    [FONT=Courier New]HQ
    Daemon Prince Tepoticus Maximus 110
    Daemon Wings (Modelled as many long mechanical legs!)
    This demon prince is illegal. With wings, he costs 130 points. 110 is pure walking. The difference matters, b/c it affects how to deal w/ it.

    TROOPS
    Squad FURY (8 FURIOUS Chaos Space Marines) 175
    Aspiring Champion Magarnigon
    Powerfist
    Plasmagun
    Not overly difficult to deal with, shoot it and plaster it with gaunts. Same for other unit. You should not let them get the charge on you, given you have fleet and he can't charge out of the rhino if it moves.

    Which squad has the rhino transport?

    Squad ANGRY (8 ANGRY Chaos Space Marines) 165
    Aspiring Champion Hellboy
    Powerfist
    Flamer


    HEAVY SUPPORT
    ‘KONG!’ The Defiler 150
    ‘Tiny’, The Obliterator 75

    TOTAL 750
    The obliterator should be ignored at first, eat the hits and use cover. Put the sniperfex fire into the defiler, and then into whatever. The sniperfex should kill the defiler quite quickly given the barbed strangler can penetrate it, and the venom cannons should almost assuredly glance it.

    The guy's list is 20 points over, so he'll have to drop wings, or drop the possessed upgrade that he's put on the rhino. I suspect he'll do the latter, since a wingless demon prince against a nid army is pretty weak.


    Andrew's Voracious Tyranid Horde (Nids FTW!):


    [FONT=Courier New]HQ: Hive Tyrant (1#, 188 Pts)
    1 Toxic Venom-Devil Tyrant @ 188 Pts
    Adrenal Glands WS; Enhanced Senses; Extended Carapace; Toxin Sacs; Twin-linked Devourer (x1); Venom Cannon; Psychic Scream; Synapse Creature; The Horror
    You have no need of the venom cannon against this list, and it costs you three twinlinked living ammo shots per turn. Make it 2 twinlinked devourers for the purposes of this fight, and in general IMO. Also, drop the extended carapace. He's got powerfists, demon prince (monstrous creature), plasmagun, obliterator, all of which will ignore a 2+ save just as well as a 3+. That's 25 points better spent elsewhere. The small # of shots coming your way that you'd get an armor save against aren't really going to make a diff. I think he won't spend bolter and flamer fire on your tyrant.

    HQ: Broodlord (8#, 213 Pts)
    1 Broodlord @ 213 Pts
    Flesh Hooks; Rending Claws; Scything Talons; Synapse Creature
    7 Genestealers @ [140] Pts
    Extended Carapace; Rending Claws
    This is too many points in one slow unit for a 750 point game. You've got nearly a third of your army devoted to a unit that only moves 6", and can be gunned down easily. I mean heck, one lucky defiler pie plate and wham-o, there goes an enormous chunk of your army.

    You want my opinion, field a second, barebones, hive tyrant w/ enhanced senses, 2 twin-linked devourers, and toxin sacs. Two of these suckers together in a list are very hard to deal with. Even if you only use one, focus it on his demon prince - shoot it up with the 12 shots as many times as you can and it'll go down.

    Troops: Gaunt Brood (8#, 40 Pts)
    8 Spinegaunts @ 40 Pts
    Spinefists

    Troops: Gaunt Brood (8#, 40 Pts)
    8 Spinegaunts @ 40 Pts
    Spinefists
    Great.

    Troops: Hormagaunts (8#, 80 Pts)
    8 Hormagaunts @ 80 Pts
    Scything Talons
    16 spinegaunts would suit you better than 8 hormagaunts for the points in this battle.

    Heavy Support: Carnifex (1#, 188 Pts)
    1 Sniperfex @ 188 Pts
    Enhanced Senses; Extended Carapace; Reinforced Chitin; Barbed Strangler; Venom Cannon
    Drop reinforced chitin. He does not have enough 36" range fire power for it to matter. Just keep your sucker back and keep the gaunts and such up in the way. The most he can do is toss an obliterator shot a turn at you with a lascannon or plasmacannon, and you can just sit in cover and ignore half or a third of the ones that actually hit and wound you. He mathematically won't be able to kill you. Drop extended carapace too. Trust me, you won't need either against his list. That saves you 40 points more.

    Drop Adrenal(WS) off your first Tyrant also - it's not going to do you a lot of good, since the DP is still WS7 and his other stuff is WS4 or less. WS6 is worthless. Toxic Miasma if you have to do anything.


    Done up math-wise, with the above recommendations, you save:

    57 points off tyrant #1
    92 points changing broodlord/ret to tyrant #2
    40 points changing sniperfex to basic sniperfex (sense, strangler, cannon)

    That's 189 points. What you do with that is up to you, but you have a number of options. A couple squads of plain jane no EC genestealers to fux up his marines when they get close ... a crapload of extra spinegaunts (though now you have 32 in the list already, 4 squads of ...

    If it were me, I'd do a dakkafex and use it on his rhino / then warriors (113 points IIRC, 2 twinlinked devourers). I'd spend the remaining 76 points on a 5th squad of spinegaunts, and then the 36 on some basic upgrades for your tyrants / sniperfex if you want to, or whatever I guess.

    This would leave you with
    2 walking dakka tyrants (24 s5 shots bs4 re-roll miss re-roll wound)
    1 walking dakka fex (8 S6 shots bs3s6 re-roll miss re-roll wound)
    1 sniperfex (in cover, 2 S10 1 S8 pie)
    40 spinegaunts (mass / provide meatshield / interrupt charges / masscharge chaos units one at a time, etc.)

    Line him up, keep in cover if you can, but it isn't too big a deal. Priority target the demon prince w/ both tyrants, the defiler with the sniperfex, the rhino with the dakkafex, and use the spinegaunts to blunt the chaos marine charges while you deal with the higher priority threats.


    Against the demon prince, your Tyrants will hit him 22 times, and wound him about 11-12 times in one round of shooting. That should kill him or nearly kill him.

    Against the rhino, your dakkafex will hit it 6 times, glance it 2-3 times, and that has a high likelihood of getting you an immobilization or destroyed. Either one is just as useful.

    Against the defiler it's longer odds, but you've got a very good chance of getting a venom cannon hit, and maybe a strangler hit. You'll probably get a glance or two, and maybe a pen. Either way, you'll deal with it in time, and take a hit or two in return (which is ok).

    Once the demon prince and the rhino are down, the game is yours. Soak up the damage you take and use higher maneuverability to put it away. He needs both of them to try and tie you up quickly. Take 'em out fast, and he's SOL.


    If things don't go your way, and you get tied up, use the spinegaunts to hold up the chaos marines, try to charge them to keep from eating pistol shots + charge bonus attack, and bludgeon all 3 of your devourer-armed monstrous creatures into the demon prince. You'll kill him, it'll be messy. Then throw them into one chaos squad at a time, which will just be clearing out of combat with your gaunts. The defiler and obliterator will trade fire with your sniperfex while this is going on, for lack of targets ... as long as your sniper's in cover he'll be fine. If he tries to bring the defiler into combat, your tyrants will probably kill it before it gets a chance to fight.

    Generally, though, unless you're in a larger points game you are more likely to be able to bring SHOOTING firepower to bear than CC power against new Chaos. If you try to go CC against him, he'll pummel you, and snipe some of your crap off on the way in to boot. Make it a shootyfest, take out his two higher speed models, and then if it comes to combat, mass your big guys like a bludgeon ... don't try to spread 'em out and fight various units all at once.
    Nids & Guard
    GMail = MVBrandt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilconic View Post
    obliterator weapons = a weapon all in one, featuring weapons for everything a commander ever needs.
    Ahhh ... yes. A friend sorted me out on this one (I hadn't realised when I posted).

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilconic View Post
    You could let him come to you, using your Gunfex and Tyrant to take out the defiler. If he fleets his Delifer, make sure you shoot the thing to pieces, since it could easily end you HT of your Fex.
    Okidokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilconic View Post
    His deamon prince has to get in CC to be scary, and you just make sure you have your Broodlord alive when he gets to close, to make the Genies do rend a tear on him.
    You could use gaunts to delay him, if needed.

    FURY is probably stayin away, and shooting from around 18'' or so.
    ANGRY will probably assault. Don't fear the flamer too much, just space your models, and will lose only 2 or something like that. You could use the fex and HT to take out the transport too, hopefully pinning the units or at least force that to leave the tank, which make them slower.

    Keep your units together, but not too close to unvite Battle Cannon splattering across your ranks.
    These are all good - I'll post my current thoughts in another post. I'll definitely incorporate your notes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilconic View Post
    good luck! ;Y
    Ta muchly!
    Cya,
    Andrew.

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    Firstly, thanks for the well thought out response! I've stripped points references out at the request of the moderator. Pesky copyright! ;-)

    The strategy points sound like they come from experience. I very much appreciate them!

    Your comments on remodeling the army I'll follow and will paste the updated list below. I can't implement all of your suggestions as I just don't have enough pieces nor time to get them (eg. no second tyrant; no additional gaunts beyond the initial 16) so I'll keep the suggestions for later matches.

    Summary of suggestions taken (given constraints, could only reduce by 112 points rather than the 189 you calculated - which, added to the 1pt I had spare, just fits in a dakkafex!):

    1) Tyrant: stripped AG(WS) and EC - have to keep VC, sadly (modelled on - so, keep to satisfy WYSIWYG; I could argue the chitin and gland as decorative, but the cannon is pushing it IMO :-) );
    2) Gunfex: stripped chitin and EC;
    3) Broodlord - reduced retinue to 5 to save points - I thought about removing him (or his brood) entirely, but I don't have anything to replace him/them with);
    4) Added dakkafex (TL-dev + ES).

    List now looks like:

    HQ: Hive Tyrant
    1 Toxic Venom-Devil Tyrant
    Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Devourer (x1); Venom Cannon; Psychic Scream; Synapse Creature; The Horror

    HQ: Broodlord
    1 Broodlord
    Rending Claws; Scything Talons; Synapse Creature
    5 Genestealers
    Extended Carapace +1 Save; Rending Claws

    Troops: Gaunt Brood
    8 Spinegaunts
    Spinefists

    Troops: Gaunt Brood
    8 Spinegaunts
    Spinefists

    Troops: Hormagaunts
    8 Hormagaunts
    Scything Talons

    Heavy Support: Carnifex
    1 Sniperfex
    Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Barbed Strangler; Venom Cannon

    Heavy Support: Carnifex
    1 Dakkafex
    Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Twin-linked Devourer (x2)

    Addressing points/questions you raised below:

    Quote Originally Posted by MVBrandt View Post
    Daemon Prince Tepoticus Maximus
    Daemon Wings (Modelled as many long mechanical legs!)
    his demon prince is illegal. With wings, he costs [more points] points. [less points] is pure walking. The difference matters, b/c it affects how to deal w/ it.
    Whoops - this was a typo on my part - I dropped off the upgrade points when cut/pasting into the mail. It actually has the upgrade considered in the total, so is legal. I've just manually double-checked the totals and his list totals 750 exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by MVBrandt View Post
    Which squad has the rhino transport?
    It doesn't explicitly say, but was listed under squad FURIOUS and above ANGRY, so I'm assuming it belongs to FURIOUS.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Xilconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kajh View Post
    It doesn't explicitly say, but was listed under squad FURIOUS and above ANGRY, so I'm assuming it belongs to FURIOUS.
    My gues is the transport is for ANGRY, because of the flamer, it seems more Close Combat oriented, and thus this unit want to get into CC as soon as possible. Still, when playing Tnids, most of the times you don't have to fear the flamer, you can often charge the unit before it comes into firing range
    Tyranids Win [31]/ Draw [0]/Lost [0]
    Daemon Hunters Win [17]/ Draw [2]/ Lost [1]
    http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...t&uniqueid=232

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilconic View Post
    My gues is the transport is for ANGRY, because of the flamer, it seems more Close Combat oriented, and thus this unit want to get into CC as soon as possible. Still, when playing Tnids, most of the times you don't have to fear the flamer, you can often charge the unit before it comes into firing range
    Fair enough - the match is this afternoon, so I'll find out one way or the other. :-)

    So ... current plan is:

    Big-bugs:
    1) Tyrant to kill greater daemon at range;
    2) Sniperfex to stay in cover to kill defiler;
    3) Dakkafex to kill the rhino;

    Troops:
    4) Squad 1 (8 spinegaunts and 8 hormagaunts) to tackle his first squad of space marines;
    5) Squad 2 (8 spinegaunts + Broodlord + 5 genestealer brood) to tackle his second.

    Other:

    As pointed out by MVBrandt - ignore the obliterator for the first round or two. (If he's on the board - depending on whether we're playing a gamma/omega game, he could deepstrike.)
    Actually - I've also noticed that the obliterator can be affected by Instant Death (if I get to hit him against his 2+ save). Both my HT and Sniperfex have weapons which can do this.
    Regardless - ignore if possible.
    If Elliot is being sneaky (and I have to assume he will be - he knows the rules by heart) - he could use the obliterator to deep strike near my sniperfex to take him out of the game. I have good odds against him 1-on-1, but it would free up the defiler to move with impunity for one or two rounds.

    Anyway - things are looking better than they were a couple of days ago - I appreciate the help!

    Regards,
    Andrew.

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    Nids FTW!

    Guys,

    Managed to win against the despicable Chaos Hordes! Thanks for the help! :-)

    That said, the dice gods were on my side, but the preparation was worth a number of free '6' rolls.

    Notable points of the match:
    • the broodlord and genestealers took out one-and-a-half chaos marine squads (I love the broodlord when the dice are with you!);
    • The Hive Tyrant and the Sniperfex ended up slugging it out with the Daemon after the Daemon chewed through 8 spinegaunts and 8 hormagaunts pretty quick (hormies took one wound off him - yay!)
    • The sniperfex managed to get two glancing hits on the Defiler to soften him up (destroyed main cannon and heavy flamer) before it got to the dakkafex in CC. Dakkafex penetrated/destroyed it to finish it off;
    • The dakkafex took out the obliterator with one volley - lucky;
    Dice rolls that went my way (ridiculous luck):
    • Elliot's attacks from defiler main cannon only killed three spinegaunts out of a possible 9 as they ran between cover;
    • My Sniperfex's counter-attack on the Defiler destroyed weapon - main cannon;
    • His Obliterator didn't wound my dakkfex even once with his two plasma shots;
    • Yet my Dakkafex inflicted two wounds on the Obliterator in his first fusillade;
    • Elliot rolled badly to get out of cover - so he was only in range of one squad of spinegaunts with his heavy flamer - one more on the roll would also have had the broodlord and the genestealer squad - this was a turning point in the game;
    • Another sniperfex shot on the Defiler after he toasted my squad = another destroyed weapon = Heavy Flamer;
    Anyway - all major characters in my squad (HT, BL, 2xFex) survived, though most only had 1 wound left making it a closer match than it would seem.

    Anyway - great fun.
    Thanks again for the help!
    Regards,
    Andrew.

  11. #10
    Senior Member TamCoan's Avatar
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    Congrats!

    That's pretty much what the sniperfex and dakkafex does. And does it well.

    One thing I've always found funny is flamers. Everyone thinks flamers are great against nids. (And they are if you ever get to use them.) However I've noticed that I've been hit with a flamer twice in the past 3 years. Played right, nids are never in flamer range. We're either killing the flamer or charging them before they are used. My normal space-marine opponent used to take a flamer-heavy list when going against me. I long abandoned that with the statement, "flamers are a waste of points, you never let me shoot them."

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