Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
A lot of people here seem down on Heavy Destroyers: they're more expensive than Destroyers, they only get one shot, they're too easy to take out, etc... I've been running two with 5-6 Destroyers (depending on how many fast attack slots I have), and have been quite happy with them. Here's why:
1. They're NOT expensive when you consider that you get an exceptionally mobile lascannon (stats wise). They're similar to a Lascannon Sentinel, for instance, with much better mobility and WBB (if you take at least two). To make their points back, they only have to kill one main tank, which they have a very good chance of doing.
2. Like all Destroyers, they should almost never be at risk on turn 1. Hide behind area terrain, then pop out and take your shots.
3. They instakill most characters. Against Tau, I've taken out at least one Crisis Suit in every game I've played. Things like winged Chaos Lords have to stay under cover to avoid them, which buys me some precious shooting time. Nothing except the C'tan and the Particle Whip can do this, and even the PW has to hit a 2+ save model under the center of the template.
4. With two HDs, I can't even get another full squad of Destroyers, and the extra 30 points isn't even two warriors.
5. Running the numbers in the usual way (I don't get the actual probability mathhammer well enough to figure it out that way) The HDs are much better at taking out heavy tanks than Destroyers, which I think are sort of wasted on that kind of attack. Lets say for arguments sake that you could bring 10 Heavy Destroyers or 13 regular ones. Against front armor 13, the HDs would hit 6-7 times, glance once, and penetrate twice. The two penetrates alone ought to yield a kill. The Destroyers would hit 26 times, and glance 4-5 times. The chance of a kill is pretty good, but lower than that of the HDs. Against Rhinos, the Destroyers would glance four times and penetrate four times, while the HD's would glance once and penetrate 5 times. I suppose that advantage goes by a slim margin to the Destroyers. The HDs, howeve, have a better chance of blowing the thing up, killing and pinning some of its precious cargo.
I love Destroyers, but I think their Cannon is wasted against vehicles that they can only ever glance. Regular warriors do a better job there with sheer volume. I understand that my HDs will be lucky to make turn 3, but they can usually make their points back before they are destroyed.
Thoughts?
Weaf
Some good points there, and generally i agree. If im playing larger enough points then ill include a few but at lower points i just dont find them worth the cost as they are less versitile.
Yeah I think you made some good points as well, really depends on what you're facing (HDs do NOT do well against eldar tanks with holo-fields....*shakes fist*) but Leman Russ and Land Raiders you almost need that kind of firepower to take them down without wasting dozens of shots from immortals or destroyers. The necron army is MADE to be using all the units. Though many just kinda glaze over certain parts (pariahs, TS, HDs) and there is a reason these units exist.
I usually take Destoyers of Heavy Destroyers, with the exception of large games.
Yeah, very well put, Weaf. For a long while I had an single HD in a 1500 force, it's easy to hide and when the opportunity arises to use it without taking much return fire it's great for sniping tough units. I only stopped using it recently as my regular opponent stopped taking so much armour and really started targetting the HD. He realised that because it's the only HD on the board it doesn't get WBB rolls... bah!
HOWEVER, as soon as I have three painted...
Yeah, I'm using destroyers, but I'm probably going to get 2 HD when I get to 1.5k matches
So... if I gave some daemons a matte paint-job, would they be "Matte Daemons?"
Necron Tactica: Flying Circus
I jacked the following from "total necrons" msn forumbasically for versatilities sake, destroyers are better imoThis post should clarify for all readers which units, Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers, are more effective in tank-busting situations.
AV 10
Heavy Destroyers:
3 x (4/6) = 2
We know that we'll need a 2+ to penetrait the armour, and a 1 to glace. Thus we must now discover the probability of each shot either penetraiting, glancing or failing to do anything (which in this case is not an option for the HDs).
2 x (5/6) = 1.66 penetrations
2 x (1/6) = 0.33 glances
Now we know that half of the dice rolled on the penetraition table will result in the destruction of the vehicle, thus we have 1.66/2 = 0.83. So now we know there is an 83% chance of three heavy destroyers destroying a vehicle with an AV of 10 in a penetraiting hit in a single turn.
As for glances, we know that only 1 in 6 rolls on the glancing table will result in the destruction of a target. Thus we have 0.33 x (1/6)= 0.055. This means that there is a 5.5% chance of three heavy destroyers taking out an AV 10 target in a single round with a glancing hit.
With this all in mind, we can add those two chances together (because lets face it, we don't care how the target goes down, so long as it's no longer in the game).
Thus, 83 + 5.5 = 88.5. This tells us that there is an 88.5% chance of three heavy destroyers taking down an AV 10 target in a single round.
Now if you've noticed, that was fairly wordy. Henceforce I'll be more brief. I hope you'll catch onto pattern of thought.
AV10
Destroyers:
12 x (4/6) = 8
Penetration requirement: 5+
Glancing requirement: 4
Failure to Damage requirement: 3-
Chance of Pen.: 8 x (2/6) = 2.66
Chance of Glance: 8 x (1/6) = 1.33
Chance of Pen. Destruction: 2.66 x (3/6) = 1.33
Chance of Glance Destruction: 1.33 x (1/6) = 0.22
Total chance of Destruction: 1.33 + 0.22 = 155%
AV 11
Heavy Destroyers:
3 x (4/6) = 2
Penetration requirement: 3+
Glancing requirement: 2
Failure to Damage requirement: 1
Chance of Pen.: 2 x (4/6) = 1.33
Chance of Glance: 2 x (1/6) = 0.33
Chance of Pen. Destruction: 1.33 x (3/6) = 0.665
Chance of Glance Destruction: 0.33 x (1/6) = 0.055
Total chance of Destruction: 72%
AV 11
Destroyers
12 x (4/6) = 8
Penetration requirement: 6
Glancing requirement: 5
Failure to Damage requirement: 4-
Chance of Pen.: 8 x (1/6) = 1.33
Chance of Glance: 8 x (1/6) = 1.33
Chance of Pen. Destruction: 1.33 x (3/6) = 0.66
Chance of Glance Destruction: 1.33 x (1/6) = 0.22
Total chance of Destruction: 88%
AV 12
Heavy Destroyers
3 x (4/6) = 2
Penetration requirement: 4+
Glancing requirement: 3
Failure to Damage requirement: 2-
Chance of Pen.: 2 x (3/6) = 1
Chance of Glance: 2 x (1/6) = 0.33
Chance of Pen. Destruction: 1 x (3/6) = 0.5
Chance of Glance Destruction: 0.33 x (1/6) = 0.055
Total chance of Destruction: 55.5%
AV 12
Destroyers
12 x (4/6) = 8
Penetration requirement: N/A
Glancing requirement: 6
Failure to Damage requirement: 5-
Chance of Pen.: N/A
Chance of Glance: 8 x (1/6) = 1.33
Chance of Pen. Destruction: N/A
Chance of Glance Destruction: 1.33 x (1/6) = 0.22
Total chance of Destruction: 22%
~NOTE: From this AV up, the Destroyers will benefit from special rules and will always have a 22% chance of destroying a target of AV 12+. Thus, I will not provide this example for AV 13 and 14 as it is redudant.~
AV 13
Heavy Destroyers
3 x (4/6) = 2
Penetration requirement: 5+
Glancing requirement: 4
Failure to Damage requirement: 3-
Chance of Pen.: 2 x (2/6) = 0.66
Chance of Glance: 2 x (1/6) = 0.33
Chance of Pen. Destruction: 0.66 x (3/6) = 0.33
Chance of Glance Destruction: 0.33 x (1/6) = 0.055
Total chance of Destruction: 38.5%
AV 14
Heavy Destoryers
3 x (4/6) = 2
Penetration requirement: 6
Glancing requirement: 5
Failure to Damage requirement: 4-
Chance of Pen.: 2 x (1/6) = 0.33
Chance of Glance: 2 x (1/6) = 0.33
Chance of Pen. Destruction: 0.33 x (3/6) = 0.165
Chance of Glance Destruction: 0.33 x (1/6) = 0.55
Total chance of Destruction: 22%
So in summary:
AV10
3 HDs = 85.5%
4 Ds = 155%
AV11
3 HDs = 72%
4 Ds = 88%
AV12
3 HDs = 55.5%
4 Ds = 22%
AV13
3 HDs = 38.5%
4 Ds = 22%
AV14
3 HD = 22%
4 D = 22%
There you go. I'm sure you can all figure out the pros and cons of each unit by yourselves. Your choice should always be dependent on what you think your opponent will field and your own personal taste.
-TCM
Ahh! Mathhammer.. *cringes*
Though the result i agree with, but my basis is on practical terms, not stats lol.
Thanks for providing the percentages. That's much more clear than what I did. I'd point out that this is more or less what I said, but I left out the AV 10 (rear armour and really light vehicles) and AV 14 (biggest, baddest tanks, front armor) on the theory that most armies I face will usually only present armor between 11-13, expecially early in the game. On all of those, the HD is going to be effective, and I'd rather save my Destroyers for shooting things that take full advantage of their Gauss Cannons. Wounding on 2's for instance.
I'd also point out that this approach converts the fractions to percentages, but still is not accurate according to the mathematics of probability. It's close enough so that I don't really care, if I remember correctly.
if you're looking at it as a fraction as opposed to a percentage, it means the same thing. as we'll say 66% of the time means 66% of the time you have a shooting phase, one should die, just as 2/3 would mean the same thing. as always there could be 3 misses or 3 hits.
my opinion of this choice between heavy and light however, depends on the game size. in a small game (imo 1700 pts or less) i have far more important things to be bringing than heavy Ds which only serve one fuction.