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I realize that I might not get any positive responses, but I hope that some of you would be able to help me out. I am a Tyranid player and would like to get some of your thoughts as to any "weaknesses" with the Ork army that any Tyranid player could possibly use. I've read the new Codex and I'm really excited on some of their improvements; I believe the Orks are fun to play with (and against) again.
Of course, as a relatively new army I think this army is one that you have to learn how to play against. Personally, I have been pwned in several ways
So what do you want from us?
- An ork player, shooting its Shokk attack gun, aiming for my Winged Hive Tyrant rolling a 12 for the strength value, then scattering onto my shooting Hive Tyrant and 1 Tyrant guard. This is the most memorable and disheartening, moment. (But really fun because I had one more Tyrant guard that I just wasn't sure what to do with after the Hive Tyrant/Guard was removed from the board)
- Getting my Carnifex smacked around by an Ork Truck with its wrecking ball.
- "Improved" shooting from an army with 4-6 Dreds/Kans
- Ghazghkull Thrakka in a "speed freek" type army, going down the center of my battle line and disrupting my army. Ok, ok, well he just went down the center and started killing off units, massacring into other units for the entire game.
I'm pretty sure that every army has a weakness that another army can exploit. However right now, I'm having problems formulating any counter tactics. I would prefer tactics that would be relevant to armies that I might actually see in games. For example, I know that if possible I should try to shoot the vehicle Ghazghukll is in, so he has to walk up the field. In contrast, I don't know too many people that play with Defcoptas or Wierdboyz, so advice on these units won't help much.
I'd consider it a favor if I could get any advice and would gladly offer suggestions in defeating Tyranids in return. As my signature indicates, I have over 300 games that I've played as a Tyranid player. I don't consider myself an expert, but would gladly share any relevant advice that might be useful (assuming it doesn't break any LO rules of course).
I currently play 2 styles of armies, the latter being my favorite at this time:
My sincere thanks in advance
- Balanced Army list (Winged hive Tyrant, Shooting Tyrant, Dakkafex, Raveners, Gargoyles, Zoanthropes, Snipefex, genestealers, hormagaunts, and gaunts)
- Swarm Army list (12 Warriors, 2-3 Sniperfexes, 1 Dakkafex, Raveners, and various gaunts)
Rudy Wilfred Picardo
Current Record (W/L/D) 143/112/60
Recent Battle - 1500 pt draw vs. IG player (mission: Seek And Destroy)
You know, Rudy, I always wondered how he got your Tyrant Guards and Tyrant with that template. Ryan's the player's name who did that to you.
The roll of 12 does remove all models, but it is still a template attack. You could have taken the un-hit guard off and left the Tyrant. You're still allowed to remove models of choice that are hit by template weapons.
The Wrecking Ball doesn't ignore armor saves, so even if it wounds the Fex somewhat easily, it's not like he doesn't get the 2+ or 3+.
The way I typically handle Orks is blunting the charge with gaunt swarms, then massing all my monstrous creatures and raveners and such into a big ball and tossing them into one or two ork squads at a time whlie they are eating through the gaunts. This keeps me from getting shot at very much since I'm in combat, re: lootaz/shokk attack guns. This also keeps me from losing combat with isolated MC's, since I force draw the charge with spread out gaunt squads (so they can't wipe them and can only kill a few extra with outnumbering), etc. etc.
It's a crapshoot, as the army works well against 'Nids. You n eed to bottleneck him where possible, and pop trukks fast. Also, might I recommend 2+ armor saves Rudy on your Tyrants and Fexes where possible. The mass rokkits a buggy/kan army can put out are easily mitigated by armor saves they can't get through.
Just a few thoughts. Ork players may have more, but I'm actually a "both" player now, though much newer with the Orks of course.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
From my point of view, the Orkz' biggest weakness is their low initiative in close combat. I don't really know the Tyranids, but if you happen to get a swarm in close combat with a high initiative, that does lots of damage, and gets carried into the next close combat after it wins, you can wipe up those Boyz. However, since Ork generals know about this weakness they are likely to have some specialists on vehicles coming to the rescue.
"Fear not and look up to the sky for salvation, for we have entered orbit."
Blood Angels 2nd Grail Guard Company
What I've found is that Trukks allow the Ork player to generally get the charge in combination w/ Waaagh!
I've had best success by limiting on terrain set-up the amount of stuff in the middle of the board that they can hide behind, and just backboarding the sniperfexes as long as possible. When you know a charge is coming, string out the gaunts in successive squads so they have to charge them or just sit there taking a sniperfex pounding, and so that if they do charge they're stuck killing only a couple of engaged gaunts and remaining in combat against their will. Then plow the rest of your army into them one at a time, eating a squad b4 the power klaw can do any real damage and consolidating into a new target.
The keynote is to blunt that big nasty charge w/ your cheap stuff, and THIS you actually can do very well, b/c the Ork player can't sit forever sniping from trukks and hoping for an opening.
Against a shooty Ork army, well, just do the normal Tyranid thing ... focus fire on the most meaningful or dangerous targets first, or if those are hard to figure, the ones you'll struggle the most to gank in close combat. Then just get into combat with them and munch munch munch. Spinegaunts getting the charge work pretty well on Orks. They deny them their pitifully low 6+ save, get 3 net attacks and attack first. It's just hard to get the charge off on the trukk boyz.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
Okay, from the games I've had vs Tyranids I'd say the following are your best bets vs Orks:
1) Capitalize on all of the high ROF weapons you've got. As long as you can take squads below 10 (or preferably below and force a 25% casualty break test, move on to a different target. Aim for as many leadership tests per turn as you possibly can in hopes that a couple work. No reason to kill Orks that would otherwise be running anyways.
2) Barbed Strangler is your friend: Sniperfexes work well at getting rid of those 1+ Loota squads you're bound to find in any Ork army that's trying to win. They're simply too useful to ever leave at home. If you don't kill or pin these guys early, they'll tear apart any genestealers/warriors/raveners that are in sight, with a decent chance of harming your MCs, but that's not where they exactly shine (especially if you take your 2+ saves, which you should!)
3) Get the charge whenever you can: this does not give you freedom to charge your army blindly into the Orks from the get-go though, as you'll most likely be outnumbered and the couple of squads that reach the enemy first are most likely to die without making their points back (ie don't just rush hormagaunts and raveners forward ditching the rest of your list). Instead, bide your time, using those first couple of turns shooting whatever you can, especially lootas. However, once the Orks get closer, do as Brandt says and bumrush the orks. A charging hormagaunt unit will cause insane casualties, but don't be afraid to use spinegaunts to block charges. Each have their uses here, but the 12" charge move is definitely a plus in the hormie book if you can keep them from getting shot until you need them.
4) Do not leave your flyrant alone: Many people take flying dakka tyrants to great success. Their biggest weakness vs Orks though is that a large number of units have charge ranges greater than their shooting ranges, and dakka tyrants simply do not do well vs a nob's powerklaw with several ablative wounds. Therefore, screen them, or even just leave them at home in favor of walky tyrants to save you some more points since you're screening them anyways.
5) Look at your underused options: This is one of the very few cases where they are useful, but consider using biovores. The fact that they are a barrage weapon allows you to hit trukks that are hiding behind cover from your other guns, and since it uses a blast you get two hits for every one that lands. Not bad for one of the cheaper options in the Tyranid list. In addition, there has been some debate as to the effectiveness of Lictors. Using two of them you can rip through SAGs, Lootas (a little more difficult due to the amount of cover they can fill up), big guns batteries, and looted wagons. In most of the objective based games I have played, the majority of my forward assault force has been destroyed, but they are able to take out the enemy in the process, leaving me an almost untouched backline of kannons, lootas, and random vehicles, which is usually all I need to take objectives and table quarters.
Finally, all I can say is to think like an Ork. Expect to lose a lot of models, but only let them die for a reason. You have some strong models, and several weak models, each of which can't win the game by themselves, yet combined can form a very powerful force. Letting one be exposed to die will cripple your overall effectiveness. Let me know how it goes!
Good advice from Gorfang, especially when facing off against an army full of Lootas/SAGs/Kannons/Etc.
To make a final elaboration on something mentioned earlier, if he charges a Carnifex with a Warboss, he has a good chance of killing it. If you charge a warboss tied up in gaunts with a couple of Sniperfexes and a Tyrant and a couple Tyrant Guards, the Warboss is going to die a horrible death before ever getting to use his power klaw and 6 / 7on charge attacks.
The key to handling the orks is target selection at range, and setting up close combat to work on your terms rather than his. If you can blunt and tie up his chargers with gaunts, you'll obliterate him, b/c a large clump of mc's/elite combat troops won't give an Ork squad time to react and PKlaw you in the face. If he is permitted to get charges off on your creatures while they're isolated, or permitted to light up your units with sustained loota/etc. fire, he'll kill you hardcore.
I didn't see that one game you played against Ryan in entirety, but from all I could see it very much looked like he was taking the fight to you in most regards. You need to more aggressively deny him such an initiative. Also, more squads the merrier. Nothing frustrates an Ork more than seeing a few spinegaunts tie up a squad that - despite Orks being as good as Spineys point for point - is still worth 3-4 times as much with upgrades/transport, and then seeing a bunch of monstrous creatures and raveners and such bowling ball through his tied up line.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
First of all as someone else said... barbed strangler...
I generally have face lists that comprised of Normal Tyrant + 3 x Guard... 1 x Genestealer unit, 1 x Gargoyles unit, 2 x Leaping Gaunts, 2 x Carnifexes with Barbed Strangler.
The effect of that was that he decimated my walking boyz. Nothing managed to survive a few round of succesful "strangling".
Admitedly his Stealers Rending was a waste... cause my armor is crappy... but on the other hand his 10 stealers had 40 attacks on the charge which eliminated large parts of my army... and while his small leapers tied my Lootas into CC his Tyrant homed in on my Nob Bikers...
The main problem with orks is initiative... unfortunately due to difficult terrain I failed to charge and I got charged... Now imagine the death he caused to my most expensive unit with that amount of Attacks and to make matters worse he had implant attack... the warboss went down with just 2 saves lost.
MVP on the other hand was Zogwort... with his wounds on 2+ power.
Thing is against the Tyrant even if I had charged he would play first but I would then have had the chance to position my orks in a way to have klaws survivng on him.
Last but not least...
Gargoyles... initial attack on I7 before u even start hitting him means u clear many boys that would prove a nuisance when striking back... also they can come close, shoot a bit and devastate a squad.
The pretty trite answer to your question is...
charge him. dont let him charge you.
Seriously I find that ork vs tyranid is one of those missmatch where tyranid will almost always win. It is like dark eldar vs necron
I do not know a lot about both armies but when I see them played against eachother it is always tyranid that finished on top.
They both swarm but tyranids have better initiative, BS and are a little faster in general so will produce more damage from shooting and will attack first in combat with almost as much attacks as the ork and will probably get the charge. I am not saying that nids will always win but they are at an advantage when playing orcs i feel.
So this thread should be change to how to "request for anti-nids tatics using tyranids" i think
not nessesarily it really depends upon what ur army contains firstly orks WILL outshoot nids period it's not a matter of bs or shot numbers in that both are equal but we have superior weaponry with regards to fighting one another
in close combat orks tend to again be equal in they have higher ws/i we have better str/t so in that we may just have an advantage due to the fact that our advantages are more useful + orks are actually cheaper than a nid who wishes to stand on equal footing so again it really comes down to what ur army has innit both have the ability to tear the heart out of the other cuz in the end the lists work basically the same quite like the eldar/dark eldar lists
"take my love, take my land, take me to where i cannot stand, i don't care i'm still free you can't take the sky from meee" ;- firefly
"i'm gonna grant you your greatest wish i'm gonna show you a world without sin" ;- serentiy
"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar" ;- serenity
Actually I would dare an Ork player to create a list that could outshoot me. They have some powerful shooting in lootas / some big gunz choices / kanz / sag's, but in general they can't match the kind of firepower that a fulldakka/3sniperfex nid list can lay down.
Orks beat 'Nids best with lots of fast (read: trukk-borne) klaw-containing close combat units that can use their transport/waaaagh to get the drop on Tyranids in favorable situations with powerful charges, especially where they can save their klaw for the monstrous creatures.
They can be effective backing this up with SAG's/Lootas/Etc., but if an Ork player literally builds a pure shooty list and tries to out-shoot a nid, especially a shooty nid, he's in for trouble. We're getting reverse here, though - Rudy wants anti-Ork tactics, not Orks are bettur or Tyranids are bettur type comments.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt