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  1. #1
    Member RudyPicardo's Avatar
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    How would Eldar generals react to this discussion?

    To all readers - this post may invoke the desire to flame. My intent is NOT to provoke, but to get an understanding from opinions of other players. If I have offended you please accept my sincere apologies.

    Eldar Generals

    As a Tyranid player (3 years), I've played many games against the Eldar. I've won some games, I've lost some games, I've gotten pwned in some games. But in general, although I know the Eldar are tough, I don't consider them ridiculous or treat the new Codex or players with malcontent. I got into a discussion on another forum, and was somewhat offended by the comments. I realize this could be wrong, and would like to gauge the opinions of Eldar players. Allow me to set up the situation.

    ==============================
    A user posted a report on a tournament. It was a considerably large post (about 2,200 words) outlining the event. In the end the top two players were Eldar. Here's where it gets heated. The next post is short, but sharp...
    So what does this tell everyone?

    Eldar are Broken !!!
    I responded...
    Quote Originally Posted by RudyPicardo
    Or perhaps...perhaps...maybe[the top 3 players] are really good players, and among the best in south Florida. They probably made some sound decisions in a high pressure situations, had some tough lists to play against, AND got fortunate with some dice rolls.
    His rebuttal
    Relax there Rudy. I wasn't making any comment as to whether or not the generals who won are not great players. That was YOUR assumption.

    Perhaps the Eldar ARE broken, and the fact that you have very good generals playing with them makes them that much harder to beat !!

    Now, if Brian had won without Eldrad, then I'd really be impressed.
    ==============================
    First lets lay out the facts about our anonymous poster
    1. He used to play with Chaos Iron Warriors, but obviously just plays with the new codex now
    2. He plays with Wood Elves in Fantasy (I don't play Fantasy, so I have no clue how this may come into play into our discussions)
    In tournament games, I think any player can beat any player, regardless of the army list they play. There are so many variables such as tactics terrain, missions, and dice rolling that can influence games. In addition, if I recall in terms of the 2007 GT circuit the overall winner was a Chaos player, Mr. Mike Mutscheller. For those that don't know circuit players play in several tournaments before the final winner is decided. Our friend here decided to make a comment based on one tournament.

    I also think that Eldar have a tough learning curve since many of your units are specialized and can do 1 or 2 things VERY well. So learning how to play an Eldar list that is synergistically sound is tough. The game is tough enough to play, but I think you really have to be a sound tactician to play with Eldar. To contrast I think there are 40k armies that are easy to put together and easy to play.
    • If I gave you an X-box controller and said it was "broken" would you use it?
    • If you were riding shotgun in my car and I said that my seat belt was "broken", would you ride with me?
    • If I wanted to use my cell phone, but it was "broken", would you want to use it?
    So when a person says that the Eldar are "broken" I do get offended. The use of the word has such a negative context; who wants to play a person that has a "broken" army. If one doesn't write anything but "the Eldar are broken" what assumptions are readers supposed to make?

    But perhaps I'm out of line. I could be wrong. And being incorrect is something that I'm unfortunately good at.

    I know that it seems that anything that is "Elven" such as Eldar/Dark Eldar/High Elves, etc. has an attached elitist label, which I could care less about. But I'm wondering if this mindset about the Eldar would lead to such statements.

    I just wanted to get opinions if my analysis was correct. Forums have a tendency to have discussions that can get out of hand. I just want to be sure my assumptions were correct and if my opinons are wrong.

    Rudy Wilfred Picardo
    Tyranid Player
    Current Record (W/L/D) 143/112/60
    Recent Battle - 1500 pt draw vs. IG player (mission: Seek And Destroy)

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  3. #2
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    Wargamers, powergamers in particularly, are an amusing bunch of people at times. They're swift to criticise other armies that are the scissors to their paper.

    I'd say your analysis is accurate. People moan about Eldar since their units on an individual level don't have to compromise like Tactical marines (and their equivalent) have to. People see the overt strengths of certain units (warp spiders for example) and fail to see the downsides involved.

    And then in some cases to defend their weaknesses as a player they'll write off an army as broken.

    In tournaments, a particular list can help. It's not that a good player can't win with a seemingly inferior army, it's just that some armies have fewer variables to deal with, and so are less likely to lose (or win by less) due to a freak dice roll. Eldar weapons benefit from their generally high strength just as much as Space Marines benefit from ATSKNF (or CSM rerolls/fearless etc.).

    Eldar armies are good at victory point denial and unleashing a storm of firepower, which does make them a higher level tournament force. On top of that they can be fast, awesome for securing objectives in nearly every mission.

    Often players of other armies turn up with a 'standard' tournament list that is probably going to be good at killing marines (the most common army) but does not take into account the highly mobile Eldar armies. The more successful SM players will bring a list that is capable of pinning fast armies down; the unsuccessful player will bring a gunline or a one-dimensional list that the seemingly 'broken' Eldar can take advantage of.


    Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by amishcellphone
    <3 rork. He does all the arguing so I don't have to.

  4. #3
    Member ajay29's Avatar
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    In my opinion, Eldar armies are freaking scary when used to their optimum...
    What people don't realise is that EVERY army is scary when used to their optimum!
    My two most regular opponents are DA and Tau. The DA player has been collecting and playing since the womb, he has amassed untold billions of points worth, knows his army inside out, and tactically is very sound. The Tau guy is very new, very naive, and still getting to grips with his army.

    I started collecting Eldar with the assumption that (a) SM are hugely "broken" (apologies HiveMind RudyPicardo for using that word) and (b) Tau suck and are easy to walk over.

    6 months down the line, and I have a huge respect for both armies. The three of us go into battle with each other with the same thought in our minds; "I'm going to lose because I know his army can do ......."
    I think Tau are awesome because of their sheer scary firepower, and SM are scary because you cant make a bad list with them really; they think Eldar are scary because they can't catch me and I've got toughness 8 badboys wandering around their lines! Its all about perspective!!

    I've seen SM armies out-swarm 'Nids, and Guard armies out psyche Eldar; no army is "broken" (more apologies) because of one thing, because there is always a way to get around it!

    Bit of a rant, sorry, but my two cents....
    Herald of the Colonel; Festooned with pistols, riddled with vermin, and finger lickin' good...

  5. #4
    Sparta! Exarch Thomo's Avatar
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    I often find thst cries of "Army X is broken!" usually come from people who are unable or unwilling to step out of their comfort zone and try something different when dealing with different armies.
    Yes Eldar can be ungodly powerful - but to do that means that everything has to work together perfectly. Because of the sometimes overspecialisation in the Eldar list it means that people have to be very careful about how they play - what moves they make, what their targets are, priority etc and as such I believe that this attracts the players who are more in tune with strategy and careful play than a list full of rock-hard super warriors (although we can do that too). Every unit has a role to play in the army and it is through this specialisation that the army as a whole becomes a lot more difficult, the down side is that if one piece of the whole is taken away it can often be catastrophic.
    The thing with eldar is that they will often either win big or lose big. If something doesn't go right it can be rather hard to come back from, unlike Space Marines for example who are a lot more forgiving. Most of our troops don't have the stats or armour to stick around in a fight and are designed for lightning fast surgical raids - hitting the target hard and getting out of their before retaliation.
    Dovie'andi se tovya sagain (It's time to roll the dice)- Mattrim Cauthon

  6. #5
    Senior Member Der_Kaiser's Avatar
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    Whenever somebody tells me that Eldar are broken, I basically say that a broken army can win without even trying. I lose very frequently, therefore, not broken.

    On a more serious note, every army is capable of putting out a list that seems unbeatable. I think most people's gripes with the Eldar are harlies and falcons. Tau have fish of fury, tyranids have nidzilla (My least favorite list to date is tyranids with 2 hive tyrants with warpscream, 3 elite fexes, 2 heavy fexes, 3 zoanthropes with warp scream, and 2 units of stealers. 1500 points), necrons could deep strike 3 monoliths on you, I really could go on for a very long time, but what it really comes down to is a refusal to adapt. That's why there's so much concern whenever a new codex (whether or not its one of your armies doesn't matter) comes out, or a new rulebook (take a look at the topic on how eldar, by the 5th ed. rumors are "gimped").

    Everything has exploitable weaknesses, and every army has the resources to exploit those weaknesses. Falcons are not invincible, I've had them die on turn 2 a number of times. Harlies hit hard, but their skeletons have the structural integrity of a gnat, etc. When GW gives me my Swordwind back we'll see whether or not Eldar are broken.

    Wow, that got a lot longer than I was intending.

  7. #6
    Sparta! Exarch Thomo's Avatar
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    Indeed I often find that the army, at least in my area, that people struggle most with are the Tau. They have greater mobility than the eldar (if not the outright speed) and superior shooting (railguns, plasma, SMS, etc), and can spend an entire game shooting with relative impunity thanks to JSJ.
    Eldar, I've said it before and will again, are a finesse army and when they work, they really work. Are they broken? Not at all and I challenge anyone who says to to 2 games. One with me using my eldar and one with someone else using them. Why the two? I know how my army works and what I have to do to make it competative, I know the strengths and weaknesses. A 'broken' army has no weaknesses and hence would be able to win regardless of who has the helm.
    But then, maybe they'll blame the dice if they lose, or the terrain, or the colour of the wall behind them, or maybe it was the goldfish making too much noise at a critical moment...
    Dovie'andi se tovya sagain (It's time to roll the dice)- Mattrim Cauthon

  8. #7
    The Fallen Cheredanine's Avatar
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    Hi Rudy, havent spoken to you for a while

    I agree with your analysis, I would add a little in perhaps less than defence of the eldar.

    The curernt Eldar codex is trying to cover a multitude of army types and give less experianced (elitist?) players a better chance with Eldar. (consider the different craftworlds it covers)

    It can, as with all codecies, be turned into a powergame army (off the top of my head, 3 falcons leap to mind)
    but this hardly makes it unique, and certainly no more broken than other codecies

    OF my three eldar armies, my latest one (the new codex) is unbeaten, my previous one has only been beaten once (by me - we swapped armies after a battle and replayed because my opponent said it was unbeatable, so I proved it wasnt) but this isnt incomparable with my other armys, my SoB, Elysians and cadians are all unbeaten (although less played), of all my marine armies, which are probably the most commonly used, I have lost 3 battles since the Eye of Terror campaign. Clearly this tells me that I am good, that is all.

    My son just got second in a tourney with his new IG army, exactly the same possition he got in the same tourney the previous time with Eldar.

    We have an Eldar player that consistently got his butt handed to him at our local on a monday night, he sold his army to a friend who has just started using it and has won 2 of 3

    there is nothing there that suggest anything unusual about eldar, a good player will get them to perform well, they can be configured to power game and a bad player will generally get them to perform bady.

    There is (anacdotally) a trend though, the nature of eldar units is clinical, they tend to excel at one thing, if you manage to get them to do that, they are lethal, if you dont, or your opponent engages them in any other way, they tend to fall appart, I have in the past, likened them to surgeons tools, very delicate but the best at what they do, net result, they have a predisposition to black and white outcomes which, if you face a good player with a good army, will tend to lead to very polarised impressions of Eldar
    Everything you have been told is a lie!


  9. #8
    Senior Member xhivetyrantx's Avatar
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    Well, since you've all had a really long rant, i'll keep mine short and to the point:
    There is no such thing as a broken army as i believe that whatever race you play as, there is another race and list that is specifically made to destroy yours. A while back i played a 1500 pt battle against eldar with my tyranids and by the end all he had was a falcon. Then another time he battled against my other friend's black templars and completely owned him. Every army we own has a weakness to another army.
    P.S.- Exarch Thomo, love your quote from wheel of time....nice

  10. #9
    Member RudyPicardo's Avatar
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    I just wanted express my thanks for the responses so far.

    To be honest, I've been in arguements with this guy before, because he and a few friends have a propensity to gripe about a lot of things or make off-hand comments. That bothers me because I'm pretty sure that forums is the next wave of global communication. Just like people are learning the proper way to write e-mails, I think these guys should be exercising proper etiquette and actually think about how the content they write will be viewed by others...but I digress.

    As a Tyranid player and collector, I think that many people collect more army units than they actually use in competitive games. For example if you guys don't use Wraithlords, I'm sure at some point and time you'd consider fielding one. Because of this, I don't have a problem with adapting to any changes in opponents codices. I think change is good if it keeps people thinking about retooling (and yes purchasing new units). So to me change is something that is supposed to happen.

    I also agree with the current comments about Eldar. The fact that I can compete, beat a newer player but get pwned by a smarter player with a smarter army is just one source of evidence that the Eldar are just fine. I don't have any problems with the Eldar, regardless of how I win, draw, or lose games.

    So when "Captain Complaino and the Wambulance" make such accusations of an entire army being "broken", it bothers me. I can completely understand any gripes that Chaos players may make about their Codex, since many veterans seem to think its too "vanilla" I know this guy played with Chaos Iron Warriors, so I guess he's still a bit salty about the fact he can't take as many Obliterators anymore. He has a right to be angry/concerned about whatever they did with his Codex. I don't think gives him the right to be rude to Eldar players.

    I didn't make the post start an argument with players
    I wanted to be sure that my aggravation (and latter analysis) of such negative comments was correct.

    I give everyone here my thanks, and I hope the responses will continue, as I hope to hear from as many Eldar commanders as possible regardless of how many years they've played 40k.

    @ Cheredanine
    My apologies for not visiting the other forums. As of late I'm having trouble accessing that site from work, so its been hard to post things there. Rest assured that I'll be posting there in the near future.

    With kind regards and respect to the Eldar...
    Last edited by RudyPicardo; March 27th, 2008 at 22:22.
    Rudy Wilfred Picardo
    Tyranid Player
    Current Record (W/L/D) 143/112/60
    Recent Battle - 1500 pt draw vs. IG player (mission: Seek And Destroy)

  11. #10
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    In my experience, Eldar aren't as bad as everyone seems to think. Sure, they're tough, but so are SMurf armies. Really, the only 'problem' unit are the Harlequins, and they're so dangerous that it actually works against them--people WILL kill Harlequins as quickly as possible, and they're expensive enough to make it hurt.

    As for vehicles, yeah, they're tough, being skimmers and all, but honestly, shaking them is enough for me--as long as they don't get to shoot.

    The problem is that, against the new Eldar, you can't simply bring a standard anti-MEQ list and expect to win like you can with most other armies. Their tanks are fairly strong, so they can't be all killed in two turns of mass lascannon spam then have those weapons turned onto the troops. Lastly, Eldar are very manuevrable, and if you play a static gunline, or get too drawn up in killing them, you'll lose by being unable to claim objectives.

    Rudy: Just a small clarification. With the new codex, Iron Warriors can field just as many Obliterators as they could in the previous codex--they just won't be to field any other heavy choices. I, personally, feel absolutely no pity for 90% of the old IW players out there having to deal with the new codex--though there are, of course, exceptions to the rules.
    "Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away." Sephiroth, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children

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