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If my army has a Archon, can i take a Dracite
Im reading that people are doing this but I dont really see how it is possible.
The Dracite is still listed under the Wych Lord Entry of the codex.
So would that mean by taking a Dracite id still need to make Wych models troops and what not.
If i am missing something any help would be appreciated.
Last edited by Cut Your Ribbon; May 25th, 2008 at 14:14.
"Playing it safe is the most popular way to fail." - Elliott Smith.
In a kabal? Yes. It's clearly lead by a lord, not a wytche lord. The archon outranks the dracite. There's also nothing saying you can't.
In the DE hq entries, it states that you can have only one Archon or Archite, and then as many Dracons or Dracites as you want. This implies that you can take an Archon, and then a Wych Dracite. But, it also says under the Wych Cult paragraph, that if you take a wych lord (the dracite is under the Wych lord entry) you cant have any Dark eldar lords. The two paragraphs contradict themselves. Where does it say that one HQ outranks the other? This isnt fantasy battle here. Can you explain how you come to this conclusion?
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If you take an Archon or Dracon, and use the Kabal rules, you can still take a Dracite (though if you take an Archon you cannot take an Arcite, if I recall correctly).
However, if you take an Arcite or Dracite, and use the Wych Cult rules, you cannot take an Archon OR Dracon, due to the limitation in the Wych Lord entry.
My thoughts exactly a dracite is still a wych lord and if you have a wych lord you cant have a Dark Eldar Lord.
It never says by having a Archon you can have a Dracite it jsut syas you can have Only One Archon Or Archite or Multiple Dracons/ Dracites. There is a full stop after that statement so IMO its not linked to being able to take a dracite just becuase you have a lord.
"Playing it safe is the most popular way to fail." - Elliott Smith.
Your confusion is coming from the line "If the army is led by a Wych Lord" ... however, if you take an Archon or a Dracon, and then take a Dracite, there is nothing limiting you to say that the army is led by the Dracite. Quite the contrary, you could state that your army is led by the Archon/Dracon and thus, you can then take a Dracite.
It's not "if you take a Wych Lord," it's "if your army is led by a Wych Lord." See the difference?
This has been an age old battle that has been beaten to death but I think it needs to re-surfaced every once in a while to get everyone up to date on it. Here is what I think about it:
First, the only real selection that is going to automatically determine who "leads" the list is choosing an Archon or Archite. Taking Vect or Lelith we can presume that either one of those will be the undisputed "leader" of the list. So Archons and Archites to me make this an easy guess.
And from example of taking an Archon in a Kabal, taking a Dracon or Dracite in a Kabal as a 2nd HQ is permitted by the careless wording of the codex. However, it is definitely clear that in a Wych Cult you cannot take a Dracon but nothing like that is spelled out for the Kabal taking a Dracite. So, in most gaming groups that i have ever been in, the Dracite is allowed to be in a Kabal. The idea being the Dracite is a "hired gun" so to speak, a mercenary for hire and is controlled by the Archon.
Its when we don't use an Archon in a Kabal that things get a little confusing. In a wych cult its obvious that if you don't take an Archite then your only choice is taking a Dracite. So what happens when we take a Dracon in a Kabal, can you take a Dracite?
This is a debate that is fully loaded - I would hate to see this get abused but since there is nothing that states who "leads" the Kabal then I would sheepishly say the player gets to decide.
Now in fantasy, you get to choose the general and in some of those armies its determined by the Leadership value. Its not like that in 40k so I hate to say that in my gaming stores, as long as you have either have a Dracon or Haemoculus you then you get to choose which is leading list. As long as the Archon is absent, either the Dracon or haemoculus get to "lead" the list and the 2nd HQ slot can either be a Dracon, Dracite or Haemoculus. I no longer make lists like this, I just feel its not "fluffy" to have a Haemoculus and a Dracite in the same list as the two are opposed to each other anyway but to the gaming stores I play at the Haemoculus can be chosen as the "leader" and the Dracite is still a "hired hand". Leadership values dont matter - the Big Grey Book (BG says the player is the "commander" of the army and I take that to mean I decide who can "lead" the army as long as I follow the Archon and Archite rule and the wych cult special rules.
As a side note: I believe GW didn't intentionally design the Kabal army to take a Dracite however. The way the sections are written they list the rule of Archon/Archite and then say take as many Dracons or Dracites as permissable but to me, Dracons was listed first to refer to taking an Archon and the Dracite was listed second to refer to the Archite that was listed second as well. I think GW wanted to keep them from mixing and just "goofed".
With that in mind, I self-impose my own rules. If I take an Archon then I am free to take a Dracite if I want. Seriously, if I take Asdrubael Vect and a Dracite is there really any question who is "leading" the list? So Archons and Dracites is okay with me.
However, I will not take a Haemoculus and a Dracite. This just breaks the fluff and reason for playing the game in the first place. Covens and Cults dislike each other so putting these two together is unnatural and wrong (but can be argued that its legal). I just don't do it. Here are some other wierd combinations that just "push the envelope".
Taking the Decapitator and Dracite in a Kabal list
Taking the Decapitator and Dracite in a Wych cult
Taking a Dracon and a Dracite in a Kabal list
Can we say the Decapitator is leading the Kabal and not the Dracite? I think we can but it seems wrong, no?
Not sure what to say about the Dracon and Dracite combo but technically you can say the Dracon is leading the kabal even if you give the shadowfield to the Dracite! I just don't do it, why push the "fluff" to get a wierd combination? I play themed armies and they are "fluffy" and perhaps the main reason for playing. I dont play just to win, I do want to win but not at the expense of causing arguments or creating a list to take advantage of a rule that will cause me to win.
So its up to you and your gaming group. We can help you decide how you want to play this and give you all the rules to make an informed decision but it will ultimately determined by either your gaming group or store manager. I do not like arguing this with forum people, we all have our own reasons and none them make a difference when I go to the store to play (unless I am playing you) so listen to everyone, make your own decision and pray when 5th edition or in our new codex some day that this all gets cleared up somehow.
Good luck and happy hunting!
As fluff wise which has been stated already an Archon could hire a Wych cult for some of his bidding...
There is nothing more annoying when your Wyches with Plasma Grenades get "Always strikes First" for their combat drugs!
To add to this there is no reason to believe that the archon is not "busy" or in another part of the battlefield, after all does Vect fight al his own battles? I think not.
To this end even by fluff i believe an army led by a haemonoculus is fine even if you have an archite as a "hired gun", which is basically what wyches do in kabals, they get hired for hte price of souls
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With the Decapitator it seems like he is only able to join an existing army(first line in his entry) and not lead/create a new one and as such I would never call him the prime factor here.
And I agree with the treatise that Kwi has slaved over, nice work mate!
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