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Are Warp-Spiders Over-rated? A quick look underneath my name will probably give away where I stand on this topic, But I'd prefer to hear what everyone else has to say. This is how it all started:
Bbart: I also wanted to do a squad of 5warp spiders + exarch + dual spinners, but this is at 127 pts, I would have to dump the vyper, both vectored engines, runes and then a banshee to do this... .worth it?
Mike Rutch: I'm 110% against the use of Warp Spiders in any Eldar army list. I think that they are the most pointless unit in the entire codex. I honestly don't see why anyone would take them, they serve no good purpose on the battlefield.
There not as good in combat as your banshees or scorpions, but the range of their guns suggest that they are going to be up close and personnal with the enemy.
Some people may also claim that they are excellent at taking out light vehicles, but don't forget that a weapon with no AP cannot get a penetrating hit regardless of the rolls. Meaning that every roll on the dmage tables is going to have to be a 6 to destroy the vehicle. A wave serpent with a twin linked shuriken cannon, and shuriken cannon has about the same chance of destroying a vehicle as the squad you described, and it's slightly cheaper, faster, and better protected.
But get a bunch of other opinions, because I'm Warp Spider Hater.
Hope it was at least a little helpful.
P.S. Warp Spiders Suck
Tell me then why Warp Spiders are commonly most shredding tournament unit?
Who is going take kill Daemon Princes?Who can generate enough wounds so that Marine player simply can't pass enough of them?Who can take out light vehicles squadron in a single volley? Who can wipe out 15-ork strong mob in a single turn? Who can smash battle tank on both side and rear armour? Who is having the best infantry save in Eldar army? Who can handle tyranids fast units charge, strike beofre opponnent, resist all punishment and vanish only to kill enemy? Who can appear anywhere on battlefield and kill preffered enemy in single shooting phase only to reappear behind terrain feature? Who is striking without receive fire from opponent?
There are some such units in Eldar army, but not only they can't do the job so well. They can do only it. And Warp Spiders can do it all/have all this precious skills.
And remain at jetbike cost.
Don't tell me they are weak! I am usualy playing on 3 eights of them. My IG and Chaos neighbourhood hates them more than tanks.
Mike Rutch: Come on Dire, for every task you listed, there is a unit in the eldar who is better suited then the bloody warp spiders.
Daemon Princes aren't that scary, and I'd feel safer using guns from further than 12 inches, or the banshees power weapons, to get rid of that nasty AS.
Marine killers? Banshees, scorpions, disperesed prism cannon blast, Pathfinders, I'd prefer any one of these to your spiders.
I actually did the math today, and the wave serpent with a twin linked shuriken cannon, and shuriken cannon has an ever so slightly greater chance of taking out an armour 10 vehicle, then a unit of 4 spiders and an exarch with two death spinners. The difference was not even worth noticing, but the difference in price was that the spiders were 17 points more expensive.
Best infantry save? Scorpions (technically the spiders are jump infantry)
Who can attack without being fired at? Hawks, who can move up to 24" without the worry that they are going to kill one of their own men.
The point is, when you play Eldar, there are alot of different types of units, with their own speciality, and no other unit in the codex is quite as good at that job, as that unit. Yes banshees and scorpions are HTH units, but scorpions are best against a unit like a IG platoon, whilst banshees will eradicate a tau battlesuit unit before they can say "my greater goodness, their killing us".
But it seems that Spiders purpose is to be a well rounded generalist unit, and I've got to say, if that's really what you want in your army, then I'm pretty sure space marines are still recruiting.
At least that's what I think, Dire.
So that's the conversation so far...
Last edited by Mike Rutch; May 27th, 2008 at 18:07.
3,75*1/6=0,625 (glancing hits)
3,75*1/3=1,25 (penetrating hits)
0,625+0,1041(6)=0,7291(6) chance of destroying AV 10.
Don't speak falsely - we are comparing 0,7291 to 0,7222
The difference is 0,7%.
Now, tell me, how on earth you are going to get your Wave Serpent on Vehicles Side/Rear Armour?
What about AV11?
What about infantry of ANY kind?
The answers for two last questions are:
Serpent Lord: 0,7291(6)//3,125
Spider Lord: 0,9629629629(2)//7,(2)//4,(814)
At the beginning, we have about 15%x, where x is the chance of vehicle's destruction.
The second category are hit scored against better-than-5+ armour-saved troops. The last one is against 5+ saved troops without cover (rather rare situation) with save included (no drawbacks with shurikannon, 2/3 chance for spinners).
And of course against AV 12 Warp Spiders are more than two times better.
Maths... please, always include all possibilities.
There is also one important thing - I included only 'Destroyed' and 'Explodes' variants. More shots, more likely the vehicle will be destroyed due to immobilisation combined with Armament Destroyed results.
There are some battlefield purposes, for which Eldar have better units. but eldar never have so -fast-and-tough not-needing-transport killers, that can even deep Strike and then... Dissapear.
They can also aqquire multiple targets when shooting (all units in game other than land raiders and monoliths are seriously endangered when they are nearby), move to claim objectives (and due to fire avoidance and hit & run combined with 3+ save resist few turns defending it), take down even heavy infantry...
They're only real drawbacks is that you need some experience when using them, as when wrongly used they are about 220 points waste.
And rightly used they earn two-three times that (including enemies distrupted, enemies killed and objectives claimed).
Not only that, they are Fast Attack, so you still have slots for other craftworld aspect killers and Harlequins.
No other Eldar unit can do so much in so many ways receiving such a little punishment, resisting such massive (for eldar infantry, of course) damage and emerge victorius from multiple short-range firefights and even combats if you add Autarch to them.
Needless to say they are devastating, tough, fast, do not require transport, can always deepstrike, do not require careful planning, do not require support, do not require a lot of terrain, do not require great number nor anti-tank weaponry.
Perfect! For paetient ancient Eldar players they seem to be best all-rounders that prove to be... efficient. Simple.
"A typical Eldar force consists of specialist units that each excel at one of the arts of war." Page 2 of the eldar codex. As I said before, every unit in eldar has a role to play, and if it was taken out of the codex, then Eldar would be underpowered in a specific area. But if you remove the warp spider unit, the list is still as strong, you can still do everything, you would just be forced to make sure every unit was stategically placed, to get the best use out of it.
And Warhammer is a table top strategy game, right? Spiders are over-rated because, although they do excel at being a generalist unit, that a general can rely on to the point where they exclude the use of more specialised units, really they take away from the stategy side. That's why I try to steer clear of playing as marines, because although you can employ alot of different unique, elaborate stategies, you really don't need to, to win a game.
But that's off topic. Eldar are, IMHO one of the best armies in 40k, because each unit isn't versatile. It makes a much more interesting game, and it makes you value individual units more. And yet every time a player asks what unit they should add to their army, Warp Spiders is often the answer given, because they are so versatile. But isn't that the exact opposite reason a player would get into this army?
Well I could point out a few flaws in your arguement, without even resorting to the failsafe mathhammer til the person shuts up and walks away giving you the finger approach. First of all, the squad you listed probably won't accomplish much. It's my belief that warp spiders should be taken in squads of no less than 7, with at least dual deathspinners and the hit and run exarch power, but ideally the squad should have additionally 1 more guy, the deepstrike power, and powerblades are optional (i don't personally like them) to be efficient. You said a shuricannon serpent is more efficient against armor than a squad of warp spiders, and because you can get ap on the serpents weapons, it has the ability to cause a pen. However, in order to even take a wave serpent, you have to have a troop to go along with it, and if you're going to take a squad in a wave serpent you should make that squad size something that will allow the unit to function efficiently.
Warp Spider's role is less specialized than other eldar units. They can hunt light armor (usually enemy skimmers on which their glance will destroy 33% of the time), they have excellent speed and can be used to pincer enemy assault units between avenger squads in front, and your spiders behind, burying them in a hail of fire. Also, think about the ease of shooting down a wave serpent, compared to killing a whole squad of warp spiders. Spiders carry a 3+ armor save, which means that most heavy weapons will be the only things to kill them without their save, but those weapons should be shooting at our unkillable tanks, giving the spiders an opportunity to flank armor. Meanwhile the wave serpent plays right into our opponents AV game and gives him another target for his lascannons. I think you'll find that a wave serpent goes down to heavy weapons fire faster than warp spiders do. Then there is the second jump, which can even be used after DS. Spiders can warp in, shoot up a squad, then rebound 2d6 hopefully over los blocking terrain if used properly. This gives them an advantage in the annoyance element. Give your opponent a unit that is hard to catch and even harder to kill, and he'll send his entire army after it if he is of weak tactical mind. Aside from all these applications they still put out withering anti infantry fire. For a very reasonable price I might add.
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left" Bertrand Russell
We bring only death, and leave only carrion. It is a message even a Human can understand.
I wouldn't call them over-rated. I'd say that they are over-hyped. They are a solid unit, but they are not the be and end all solution for every problem the eldar can face. They can be equipped as an excellent backup to whatever units needs it though. That's where their strength lies. They can back up a good round of shooting with a little more firepower or assault. They can also bail out of that assault if things go badly. They can also keep pace with a mechanized army, and without the transport that will eat anti-tank fire. Notice that they don't accomplish any of these jobs on their own. They are an excellent support unit because of their versatility, but they can't do everything by themselves. That's why I say they are only over-hyped, not over-rated.
I have to admit, my hatred of the warp spider might stem from the fact that I do pest control for a living
In all honesty though, I have gained a bit of respect for the spiders. I can't see me using them anytime soon, but I do understand why so many people swear by them.
Thanks for your help.
The Jump shoot Jump is always nice with a solid amount of firepower, most assaulters will have a hard time catching up to them. No they aren't a godly unit. They play a part in the Eldar army that is not essential but can strengthen your overall force.
Although the Eldar excel at specialization, geared towards annihilating one specific type of unit. Sometimes, that strength can become a weakness.
That is where i usually find the Warp Spiders come in. Unlike the other Aspect Warriors, they can fill nearly any role needed. Which means they don't become a redundant unit unlike say, fire dragons who after taking down vehicles, will be overkill for most infantry.
Wrong Example. FDragons are great against heavy & light infantry too.
I'm still finding their best use but in all games with them they've been wiped out. I play against Chaos and Marine forces and the Warpspiders have been most useful as a distraction so far.
I wouldn't say i hate them but they are harder to descern where the best place to commit them is when they arrive. As has already been pointed out they don't appear to have a killing specialism as much as move/save one. I've had them assault CSM's and loose, i've had defiler get lucky and decimate them with battle cannon (out of LOS), i've had them CC'ed by the defiler and they can't do anything to it, i've had them open up on Marines and only kill one then loose one to warp in the retreat. Alot of frustrating moments. I've been unlucky with them at times, i guess. They do have a reputation but that's wearing off in my group as they've yet to cause anything more than mild irritation to my opponent. I accept that i'm learning the best way to use them but at the moment i prefer to spend the points elsewhere. Because mine are arriving via deepstrike they are often only given a couple of turns to make a difference and my hit and run tactics with them chip away rather than provide any decisive result. Whilst i realise a comparison with other troops is pointless they don't pack the same punch as the deep strikers my opponents employ, ignore Deathwing or Chaos Terminators behind your lines at your peril. Perhaps the effectiveness of there deepstrikers raised my expectations (basing them on the tactic) - stupid i know but i'll be honest. Guess time will tell for me. Despite them i've 5 in a row winning streak but still.
Bleed Black Label S.D.M.F's!!