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Interesting First Game With My Biel Tan

1K views 20 replies 10 participants last post by  Cheredanine 
#1 ·
I recently had my first game with my eldar army.

It was 1500 points and against a crimson fist marine player.

My army list was a farseer, two Banshee squads in wave serpents, a scorpion squad(with farseer), a 10 man spider squad, and a banshee squad.

He had a large HQ squad in a Rhino, a land speeder, a dreddnaught, a 10 man assault squad, a 10 man devastator squad, a terminator squad, and a 10 man tactical squad. Now that I think about it, i don't believe he even had two troop choice unless crimson fists have a special rule, but it doesn't matter.

We played on a 4x4 table, 4 quarters, and I got first turn. I moved both my banshees squads up, jump out, thinking I would be in range with both, I charge the terminator squad with one, and the other rolled a one on fleet of foot... needless to say they missed by about an inch and half. I also got my hawk squad into combat first turn... Result, one dead terminator and two dead marines... He killed about 3 banshees, and a couple hawks, but my banshees ran of course...

The following turn he proceded to shot both my banshee squads, one ran below 50% the other failed and had 5 men left, my scorpion squad lost 5 members, failed their morale and ran away with my farseer... I proceeded to kill a few of his guys with his dev and assault squad locked up with my hawks, his HQ went after my spiders, killed about 2.

Things were very very very bad at this point, I was getting served. However my one banshee squad passed their morale!! I shot his terminator squadwith the starcannon on my wave serpent, I then charged my banshees into his 10 man tactical squad killing all 10 of them. My spiders jumped back and drew his hq far away from the main battle, and destroyed his HQ's Rhino. My hawks died, and my banshees where left in cover, to face all his fire power...

His next turn his shot my banshee squad, killed 4 and all that was left was the exarch, who survived about 5 saves! He failed to kill the exarch and she passed her all on her own.

I took my exarch, all by her self, and charged his 10 man assault squad that was still in tact. I proceded to kill three and receive one attack back, did nothing. For the subsquint combat, she used acrobatics to jump away from his sergeant, then kill at least two, and avoid being hit! She killed the squad to three! Seven assault marines! As you can see I now have a tremendous respect for 8pt acrobatic, and would recommend if it is the only 8 point upgrade you must have, then that is it.
I procede to destroy his army till we drew. Each having one unit above 50% hold one quarter a peice. It was a trememdous come back after a terrible start.
 
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#2 ·
That seemed like a fairly unbalanced army from your side, but those troops are really the bane of Smurfs... though some Dark Reapers could reap a lot too. :w
Exarchs really own, they do..
 
#3 ·
Originally posted by Viktor@May 9 2004, 08:24
That seemed like a fairly unbalanced army from your side, but those troops are really the bane of Smurfs... though some Dark Reapers could reap a lot too. :w
Exarchs really own, they do.. I actually only have two squads because I bought them both off some guy for 20 bucks. I couldn't turn down that deal.
Well, I could field like 7 star cannons and then a reaper squad and a banshee squad, banshees and exarchs are really my only anti-marine unit.
 
#4 ·
I play Biel Tan as well.. Bansheers are not as good as they look trust me, 5s to wound marines makes them less than useful generally.. Playing against Marines you *need* to give the exarch executioner.. You dont get 5 attacks on a charge but you wound on 3s which is much better than 5s trust me. Remember 3 terminators = entire squad of 5 banshees + exarch so long as you kill that you're okay..

In my Biel Tan I use what I coined the Line Backer strategy.. Avatar and Wraithlord in the middle generally or wherever you wanna break through and put your bansheers on the side, along with some guardiands as screen

One thing Im wondering, how did you even attempt to charge on the first turn? You cant assault out of an eldar transport so not sure how that even happened honestly

Thats a common misjudgement tho, Banshees are great against 3 toughness troops and sorta useful against terminators but not much as 1 terminator getting to strike back means half your squad is dead sometimes
 
#5 ·
How did I assault first turn? I moved my serpent 12, depolyed, fleet of footed and assaulted. He only placed 18 inches away.
Actually I would say banshees are good, but not as good as percieved. They are not durable at all. They only do damage to marines on the charge(besides the exarch). I hate it though when a squad of 5 terminators makes 3 five plus invunlerable saves after I roll shitty to hit and wound.
 
#6 ·
You cant assault after you deploy if the vehicle has moved is what Im getting at ..

In the trial vehicle rules it says you cannot move or assault unless the vehicle they have disembarked from is Open topped or has not moved this turn

So you cant really do that first turn, however it is generally better to do it second turn anyway as you move 24 or star engines.. Wait get shot at presumably live and then get out next turn and charge
 
#7 ·
But Kirasu, he didnt say he was playing TVR, in fact they are not only optional but are generally not used in tourneys at the moment. So he can assult when he disembarks.

Banshees are the best eldar close combat troops for assulting marines or termies, yes they only have Strength 3, but if they had str4 that would only give them a 1 in 6 extra chance of wounding, and without the power weapons the saves of marines, and especially termies, would waste the attacks, point is hit first, take down fast, I agree the executioner is the best weapon option, for the exarch, and that they do go down in protracted combats, but the ability to ignore armour saves is priceless, I mean leave one termie standing? out of an entire squad, he gets 2 attacks, on average that will kill one banshee, one dead banshee for all bar one of a termie squad? I would take that trade any day
 
#8 ·
Originally posted by Cheredanine@May 10 2004, 06:57
But Kirasu, he didnt say he was playing TVR, in fact they are not only optional but are generally not used in tourneys at the moment. So he can assult when he disembarks.

Banshees are the best eldar close combat troops for assulting marines or termies, yes they only have Strength 3, but if they had str4 that would only give them a 1 in 6 extra chance of wounding, and without the power weapons the saves of marines, and especially termies, would waste the attacks, point is hit first, take down fast, I agree the executioner is the best weapon option, for the exarch, and that they do go down in protracted combats, but the ability to ignore armour saves is priceless, I mean leave one termie standing? out of an entire squad, he gets 2 attacks, on average that will kill one banshee, one dead banshee for all bar one of a termie squad? I would take that trade any day
he is correct. in the current rules u can move a max or 11.9999999 inches and deply (not 12!) and still asault.

banshees are extremely useful hth combat troops, but beil tan players who only take squads of banshees will get there arses handed to them. they wont have any toughness first of all, and NO flexibility.

biel tan should be played with a variety of different aspect warrior squads. each sqwuad is SPECIALIZED. it does one thing better then anybody else. if u use wat u ahve in this way, there isnt alot that can stop yu.
 
#9 ·
Salamander: A vehicle can move 12", the squad can deploy up to 2" away from the door, banshes can fleet of foot up to 6" and still assault up to 6".

That will add up to 26", that is preastty much enough to cover a 18" distance.

In relation to the anti marine squad I think that because of the sheer ammount of attacks and Strength 4, IMO, the best squad would have to be Scorpions....against terminators maybe the Banshees should have a go but on power armour i prefer scorpies.
 
#10 ·
Hugus, the fact that banshees have power weapons means that one wound from a banshee is as good as 3 wounds from a scorpion on power armoured troops, as far as I recall, scorpions will get an extra attack from the mandiblaster and alright they need one less to wound, but this actually only equates to an extra wound for every 6 rolls to wound, which equates to 1 wound extra for each 12 attack, then maths mate say banshees are streaks ahead of scorpions against powered armour.

Your charge statement sounds impressive and indeed they can do the 18 inch thin, but the move beyind that is dependant on the dice roll for fleet of foot.

Sorry didnt want to sound arguementative
 
#11 ·
Cheredanine: Don't be afraid of being argumentative, by itself means you try to defend your own points of view by presenting your arguments... in my opinion, the point of being part of a forum/group like this is to exchange information and present help to those in need.

By presenting your view on things you led me to work out probabilities on both banshees and scorps and definately banshees are best against SM. Maybe i always looked at scorps as the best all rounded aspect and by it enlarged the concept as the best anti marine squad (which probability wise i'm wrong).

Anyway, thanks for your comment, really.... ;)

About the movement, even with a 1 on FF you still get to charge in open terrain (no difficult terrain) up to 21".... good enough.
 
#12 ·
Not worried about defending my points mate, it just sounded at bit more aggresive than it was meant

And for what it is worth, I personnally dont worry about the maths (if you are using Siam Hann, you cant be too much of a powergamer without buying 18 Vypers, which I havent).

Having been in fire fights myself, to be honest, you are not thinking 'this guy with a bayonett only has a 45% chance of killing me but the guy over there with the mortar has a 65% so I will shoot him'

Equally, things often have a greater or lesser impact on the game than their points value, I got no problem with someone making an informed decision and using scorpions rather than banshees against marines, provided they are aware of the facts. After all The only models currently deployed with my Siam Hann besides bikes and vypers are swooping hawks, I can honestly say, since I dont liek using them as an Exarch delivery system, they are pap on the battlefield, but I love the figs
 
#13 ·
here's a bonehaed question.. my army has 2 units of 10 banshees & 1 unit of 10 scorps both with exarch...would it be worth chaniging 1 unit of bashees to Fire Dragons cosidering i would be left with 2 HtH units or stay away from FD.

although fusiongun looks pretty good and so does melta bombs

what's your thoughts?
 
#14 ·
the thing is that scorpions have a higher staying power in HTH than banshees usually do... the whole point of banshees is to charge headlong into an expensive squad, take it out in one glorious round of combat, then consolidate back into a transport or sweeping advance and get shot to bits
scorpions are better at long drawn out combat and have a staying power that the frail banshees lack
i would stay away from fire dragons... you're usually better off using a bright lance because of its range... not to mention the things that normally have a bright lance last for a while
yeah swooping hawks are only really good as an exarch delivery system as stated... warp spiders with a fully upgraded exarch can reak havoc though... jumping in and out of combat and behind scenery... it's just fun to do even if it's not the most effective thing to do
 
#15 ·
Hmm, whilst gobbo is right to a degree, I think you are over playing it a little mate, the difference between banshees and scorps in stying power is one point of save, the differenct between the two in killing power is whatever your opponents save is, against 3+ saves, take the banshees hands down

I agree about fire dragons, it takes a lot of skill and some luck to use them effectively every time without your own vehicle getting toasted

Hawks I love, but they are pants if you use them as their fluff suggests, and I hate the exarch delivery system (4 hawks, 1 exarch, sustained assult, shuri pistol and WoS)

Spiders as gobba says

If you want fusion guns and/or meltabombs/haywire grenades, take storm guardians
 
#16 ·
banshees are great for killing marines , cos they strike first and got power weapons , but with that pathetic 4+ save , they can't take a beating back , plus , after a few games , lots of firepower will be directed at them , heavy bolters , heavy flamers ......the list goes on and on . its better to shoot them and only get into HTH combat if really needed .
 
#17 ·
As with most eldar unit types, banshees only really work in one way, think of an Eldar army as a surgeons scalpels rather than a chainsaw.

Banshees are designed to charge into compbat against good save infantry.

their save is not that terrible, there are few weapons who ignore it and dont ignore scorpion saves. in combat it means 1 in 6 saves you fail an extra one comparatively, but the point is you already killed more of them so they got less hits.

ye they get shot at, of course they do, so do Bezerkers, death company, Honour guard, genestealers, wyches etc etc the list is endless, the biggest problem is the lack of transport readily available unless you are some sort of master converter or are prepared to go to forgeworld
 
#19 ·
You are quite correct Rioni.. (I cant spell that). However it depends what you want your outcome to be, in theory the weapons should be turret mounted and you should also model the energy field. There was, if memory serves, in an old WD a design for converting a WS using a falcon, a couple of weapons, and bizarely enough a plastic tea spoon, it takes a considerable amount of effort to avoid this looking like a falcon with a plastic tea spoon on top (although admittedly I should have cut the handle off the spoon)
 
#20 ·
The thing is you don't HAVE to model everything like Games-Workshop wants you too

As long as everything is modeled, there shouldn't be any problem

If the Brightlances and under the cockpit instead of on the turret, no big deal.

If you use a little machine thingy to represent a shield generator instead of using.... a.... plastic spoon? Then it's ok too.

Just use your imagination!
 
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