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I hope that nothing here goes against the conditions at LO. If it does, I'll edit.
Ork Boy. x points. 2 attacks on profile
Harlequin. 3x points. 2 attacks on profile.
Plague Marine. 4x-1 points. 1 attack on profile.
Vanilla Marine. 2.5x points. 1 attack on profile.
Striking Scorpion. 2x+4 points. 1 attack on profile.
Have GW broken the game when Ork Boyz get the same amount of base attacks as a Harlequin at a 1/3 of the cost? Harlequins are elite close combat specialist. Ork Boyz are blood thirsty, uncivilized barbarians.
An analogy to explain myself.
Initiative represents how fast a model acts. Correct? In a combat situation, the number of attacks a model can make would be dependent on its initiative. The faster a model, the more attacks it can make in the time period of a close combat round. Bruce Lee would have initiative 6, and should therefore strike with more attacks than a fat man with initiative 1. This is not the case with Ork Boyz, who have a horrible initiative but have the same or more attacks.
ps. I do not hide the fact that I dislike the Orks. Not because of what they are, but what GW have made them to be in my eyes.
Your only looking at one angle, its not just attacks that make up a CC units cost..
a harlequin has high I, fleet, invul saves, ignores terrain ....
Marines have ATSKNF and power armour, and the ability to actually hit someone when shooting.
You pay for what you get.
Orks get sweet jack all on their own and are priced accordingly.
Oh and high initiative means you can wipe your opposition out before they can strike back, something orks arnt going to do against other CC specialists
Last edited by Azure Fade; June 1st, 2008 at 14:47.
What once was courage has now cursed in the wars we've made.
We are the sinners, before our graves.
Orks get a good WS, good T, good S on the charge, the opportunity to be fearless and compensate their poor BS with Assault 2 weapon.
Regardless of that, my point about Initiative determining how many attacks a unit has stands.
Another point. Orks do have a shoddy armour save of 6+. But by making use of cover they can improve this to 3+ at times and 4+ very often with the amount of buildings on board. This benefits them much more than models with a 3+ or 4+ save.
Last edited by Mahatma; June 1st, 2008 at 14:50.
Init is more about striking order, though you make a good point. For the pts costs, you just need to look at what else the other models get that the Orks done.
You are comparing apples and oranges. You also have to look at the codex as a whole instead of one single unit entry. Orks are far from broken. The reason orks are so cheap is that they will take horrendous casualties getting to the enemy. Harlequins can run up a board edge and usually can leap into combat without suffering a single round of shooting (shadowseer) By the time an ork boy squad gets to grip with an enemy it has had to suffer at the very least 2 rounds of shooting, usually 3-4. So when they do get to grips they need as many attacks to hurt whatever they hit. Not to mention once they get into lower squad sizes their LD is abysmal and it isnt hard to make them panic. As for the reason their initiative is so low, it is mostly for game balance purposes. Initiative has nothing to do with th amount of attacks a model has. Why do SM have 1 attack and guardsmen have 1? Why do noise marines have 1 and guardsmen have 1? Initiative can represent perhaps the fluidity with which a fighter strikes. An ork is relentless and will sling its weapons about like mad until it or something else is dead. Maybe the higher initaitive model is fast enough to get one attack in then has to go on the defensive while the ork swings away? Who knows? Its a game before anything else and as it stands orks are balanced. Their low initiative gives higher initiative models a chance to wipe out some of the attacks coming at them.
Joe Peshi (lone wolf) kill tally:Lash Sorcerer, Ghazkull, Yriel, Termi Libby, Vulkan.
The attack characteristic represents the ferocity of the attacks as well as the actual number. Saurus are initiative 1 and have 2 attacks for example, cos they are ferocious fighters
Our WS is no better than anyone elses half the time. Our STR is only reasonable on the charge in which few assaults are ever sorted on the charge. T4 means very little these days when everyone is fielding high STR weaponry across the board. Our Init stat is low even on the charge which gives an opposing force plenty of opportunity to wipe out the Ork attackers before they get a chance to swing, our armour save is 6+ which is hopeless in close combat (forget cover saves, Orks do not sit in cover all day like other armies, we have to move forwards to do anything!), basically the main advantage we have over most armies is our attacks stat and for a race which thrives on combat and reckless fury it suits them.
Like matey said, you're comparing apples to oranges. Our shoota gun is assault 2 yes, but its 18 inch range. By the time the squad gets near you half of it is missing. And deep striking marines of all kinds can sneak behind them and rip them apart. The ork army hits hard, its meant to, but you need to realise that it also dies easily! We have no decent AV, easily killable open topped transports and 6+ saves in the entire army list. We hit hard but die hard, all the marine races don't get that issue yet still cost fairly little in points for the time they spend on the battlefield!
In the end you have to stop Orks before they reach you and many gunline style armies like Tau, Necrons and Marines can do that reasonably well. If they do reach you, then you've only got yourself to blame! One thing to notice about Orks as well is that each squad is only good at once particular thing. An ork slugga squad in a trukk is brilliant on the charge, but sucks at shooting (as if Orks don't already with BS 2!). A shoota squad is average at shooting (again coz of BS 2, that makes a hell of difference compared with BS 4) and sucks in combat. Lootas are good shooters, but suck in close combat. Nobs are great in combat but suck at shooting, none of our stuff performs both roles at the same time so as a general I (and others) have to make the army synegise with itself (even harder in team games!). Marines on the other hand excel at shooting and are still dam good in assault, so each squad you get can fulfill both roles. Grey Knights are even worse, they excel at shooting and assault!
We are fairly balanced in 4th, if you're that bothered, wait till 5th Ed when we get nerfed in several areas. I mean the rule about not been able to consolidate into other groups after assault kills the entire Ork army stone dead, but we'll still enjoy a good Waaaghhh! Another advantage we used to have was speed, well now everyone can run we've lost that edge as well. We'll no longer be able to even dent AV 13/14 with any reliability and our transports won't become any more durable than usual. Its difficult to justify Orks been overpowered in 4th, but in 5th, not one single person can make that claim!
Last edited by Skarsgard; June 4th, 2008 at 02:40.
Do orks have too many attacks? All things considered, 2 base attacks is hardly all that more potent when facing off against a marine who will ignore most of your hits anyway. What makes the orks dangerous the fact that while we have a harder time actually wounding/killing MEQ we make up for it with a whole pile of attacks.
Let me put it this way, Static fight (ie: no charge bonuses) 1 Marine vs 2 orks, marine strikes frist, has a 50/50 chance of hitting with 1 attack, a 50/50 chance of wounding and a near guaranteed kill if he does wound. While the orks have the same 50/50 chance at a hit, but then need a 5+ to wound and the marine will save on a 3+.
So marine goes first and kills an ork, then the other orks flails wildly and hopefully is lucky enough to kill the marine but more often than not he won't, even with the 3 attacks he has for 2 weapons and a base of 2 attacks.
So while the greater number of attacks seems unbalancing, it really isn't. Anyway, I'm not much good at mathhammer and have never put much stock in it anyway but the general idea is that while oks do have a large number of attacks, most other combat specialists will be able to shrug most of them off, the orks aren't so lucky.
Gargrimz Green Deff
W:10 D:4 L:5
I'm not arguing that Orks don't need extra attacks as they are. My point is that it makes no sense when compared to other units. I don't know of another troop unit that gets two attacks, plus 1 for the extra cc weapon. And if they do exist they sure as hell will not be 6 points.
Orks look like Gorillas, smell like Gorillas and probable fight like Gorillas. Why do they not have strength 4? Are they really as weak as humans or Eldar when twice the size? If so, then there muscles are all for show. Orks could have strength 4, furious charge and one attack, and it would make sense from a fluff background, from looking at the models and from comparisons with other units. Hell, have them strap a few copper plates to their chests and give them a 5+ save for all I care. But two attacks?!
Does anyone who plays another army not look at their plague marines for example and think 'finest fighters in the galaxy, bred for war, live for war, hundreds of years experience of war, nearly two dozen points but wait......one attack? wtf?'
Don't get me started on Nobz. same number of attacks as a Harlequin Troupe Master but instead of one per unit you guyz and galz (ugh I'm writing like an Ork) can take about 50 in 2k points.
And BS2? That's deceptive. The imperium are running around with guns that fire once when moving when Orks have somehow created these neat Assault 2 shootas and Assault 3 Dakkaguns. Yeah I know the Imperium are a bunch of backward fundamentalists scared of technology. When I found out I lost respect for them. Orkz may look like primitive apes but they do have the brains to churn out decent weaponry, at bargain prices.
Do the right thing and tip-ex out the 2, write in a 1.
Well, plague marines technically do have 2 attacks with 'uber grit'. Yeah I would actually agree in giving Orks strength 4 and furious charge. It just makes sense fluff wise and balances out the major balance issue in the Ork codex.