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I've always found Destroyers good, fantastic even. So I wasn't really surprised when people at my club said that lists with 15 Destroyers were the Min Max necron list.
I see a bunch of glaring flaws with the list though, but they said it worked. I've tried it a few times and always found a few problems.
1. Destroyers are one of the easiest things for my opponents to deny WBB on. With only 5 per unit, and only 1 toughness more than the warrior to protect them, their only real protection is for me to deny line of sight.
2. Lower phaseout. Destroyers are expensive, so they lower the phaseout, this kind of speaks for itself.
3. For the most part their shots are just as good against tanks as warriors. They usually glance on a 6 as well.
4. They have less total number of shots as the same amount of warriors in points. This is especially true at rapidfire range where warriors will almost get twice as many shots. Their shots are of a higher quality, true, but sheer number of shots is quite a good thing, especially when shooting at marines whose save isn't denied or tanks where they are just as likely to get a glance.
So, considering these points, I'm surprised 15 destroyer lists can actually work as a minmaxed. I've always found that destroyers work best supporting my large body of warriors, instead of ignoring the warriors.
Even worse though is that if the warriors aren't supported you can't really use them effectively. I found that in my 15 destroyers list I used to run I couldn't use my warriors that effectively due to phase out, so that's almost 360 points that I'm using sub par.
What do you guys think?
Yeah, I totaly agree with you. Destroyers are awesome, but they just need the rest of the army to back them up.
First off, lets clear up one misconception: Necrons *cannot* min/max. At all, ever. The definition of min/max is to take many minimum sized squads to get the maximum number of special upgrades out of your units. Necrons have absolutely zero special upgrades. The only upgrades possible on anything other than the overpriced lords is disruption fields which is for your entire unit. Not exactly a min/max situation there.
Anyway, I play a 15 destroyer, 9 heavy destroyer list with 20 warriors and the Deceiver at 2k points. It's something like 1995 points total. It is truly disgusting, and I think you're missing out on the list's strengths / overestimating perceived weaknesses. The mobility is awesome. Who needs a monolith / veil to pull out of assault when you move 12" and fire everything? Or if they're getting too close, just zoom 24" away. And the Deceiver can protect the warriors if they need it... or just go do his own thing if they don't.
- Insta-kill: at T5, that's difficult. There's not many str10 things in the game that can't instantly be neutralized by a destroyer volley (like a vindicator). Most of the str10 comes from Dread CC attacks, which should never touch you.
- Power weapons in combat: Destroyers are so mobile, you shouldn't get caught to be assaulted.
- Wiping out all nearby: I'm not sure how many armies are capable of this. If you have all three of your destroyer squads hanging out together, they need to kill 15 T5 3+ save models at once to deny your WBB's. And if your opponent is dropping with plasma, remember you can turbo-boost for an invul save. You don't even need to do it with all squads, just one so that you'll have surviving destroyers to join up with.
As for not being able to use the warriors effectively, they still hold objectives great, can do some basic shooting at anything that tries to come after the destroyers, etc... and if your opponent doesn't shoot at them, well, that's 360 points untouched (and you won't phase out).
There are only three things I have had problems with so far:
- Double fear drop pod marines landing with PFist squads. Those guys are very annoying, since if you break, you'll never be able to rally with all the pods around. And testing at -2 is bad if you can't immediately kill the librarians.
- Double lash chaos with oblit spam. Double Lash > Necrons regardless of how you're playing... though I think the Destroyer / Heavy Destroyer spam has the best shot against it.
- Snikrot orks. The list shoots so hard that it can put a real hurting on regular orks trying to cross the field, it's Snikrot that causes the problem. He negates your mobility by rushing in off any board edge and charging you.
I just play tested a list used by moob.
At 2000 pts
The key is just to keep the squads close to each other. In one turn he managed to kill all 5 of one unit but my 2nd unit was close by and 3 stood back up.
As to the phase out they would need to kill all my destroyers and half of my warriors to phase me out. Pretty hard considering the destroyers are so mobile and the warriors are guarded by the deceiver.
The amount of shots pumped out is not quite as much but the destroyers let your shots be anywhere. Especially against orks I was hitting all his vehicles turn one.
I don't necessarily feel the army is better than a really shooty list with destroyers, immortals, and maybe more warriors. It is however, at least for me, much more fun.
Funny I was posting a story about moob's list as moob was posting. I only found out after posting, anyways there yah go. Also Kudos to Moob, I didn't have the balls to go all destroyers until i saw you succeed with it. Pleasantly surprised with how well it performs. Lets hope my friend doesn't think of snikrot and when he does lets hope my deciever can get there in time.
Last edited by ShadowFast; June 6th, 2008 at 16:06.
Maxed Destroyer lists are insanely good. Despite the balancings stated in the original post, they just work.. well!
Come to think about it nowadays I rarely use more than 6 - 8 Destroyers, I've just recently fallen in love the first turn wraith charge.
I've tried one of Moob's style of army, I might try it out sometime.
.... and by the way Moob, what exactly is your name referring to?
Doh, lost my reply to a misclick. :/
Name - it's a bit of a long story. Shortest version is a gamer friend I used to play with couldn't type for crap, kept making the same typo over and over. I just ended up taking that as a handle as a joke, and ended up just keeping it over the years.
For the Wraith charge, it can be pretty effective against certain armies - but good players should be able to avoid it. Figure 6" 'lith move, 3" effective disembark range, 12" move, 6" assault - that's ~27" charge threat. They'll have to deploy almost as close as possible to your monolith to allow that assault to happen. Most shooty armies will not do that, trying to stay out of porting rapid-firing warriors, and assault armies will laugh at wraiths. Plus, if you're that aggressive with your monolith against shooting armies, you risk it being popped right off the bat.
hmm... I assume he kept hitting the m key instead of the n key when spelling noob? Good thing you did'nt name yourself man boobs.
As for the first turn charge, I find it works well when your opponent really has no clue that your going to do it. Obviously it only works against assaulting armies but I find that typically people tend to have a unit or laying around in your 26" kill zone if they are'nt aware of your plans.