Welcome to Librarium Online!
So, as I am starting nids, and about to build my stealers, I was wondering what people think will be effective biomorphs for them in 5th. I am going to go over what I think will be the use of each biomorph in 5th.
So in 4th, I would have done extended carapace and feeder tendrils, with scuttles being an option as well.
Now with the changes to rending in 5th, with it being caused on the wound roll, but other than that its the same, there are some different options to consider. Note that this is purely speculation on my part, as I haven't played with them or 5th ed yet.
The first is the expensive acid maw. This is one of the restricted biomorphs, so no feeder or flesh hooks, both of wich are also very valuable for 5th ed stealers, which I will get to in a sec. So acid maw lets you reroll wounds on the first round, meaning that the stealrs will get lots more rending that turn. Sounds good, but the 1 turn restriction, and the point cost make it probably not that great.
Flesh hooks are better because of how offesive grenades work, letting them srike at reg intitiative.
Feeder tendrils however I think are the best, because preffered enemy is now reroll to hit, instead of hit on a 3+. Now Stealers will be hiting on 3's most of the time anyways, so it just makes them even better, but when you give that to your tyrant, or hormies, or even gaunts, it seems like this is the choice to take, and it's cheap as dirt.
Extended carapace seems like it is not as needed anymore as things are supposed to get more cover saves, but we shall see. I haven't played 5thm just heard the responses from those who have, sayin everything gets cover. Could also be gotten from the gaunts you have right in front of them. Something to consider, but the EC is still nice.
Now, the option I think MAY be the best now, that is, scything talons. I have read in tacticias that in 4th, people don't like em because you kill enough without them, only being able to kill those things that are engaged. Well, with the counter attack move implemented in 5th, there should be much more troops to kill, and take into count that rending is slightly less effective now.
Toxin sacs, probably still not needed, as those 6's to wound are what count.
Implant attack, same as before. No use to me.
Now for scuttlers. I am uncertain if the new outflank rule for 5th is for infiltrators AND scouts, or just infiltration, but if it is, a scuttling brood of stealers would need to be kitted to survive on its own, but could be extremely deadly, as outflankers can charge the turn the arive. Personally, I think my stealers will be second wav assault behind the hormies/raveners, but the option to mix it up is very nice.
So I am thinking of the following builds for stealers
Behind gaunts 21(24):
Thats expensive, maybe take out talons on them, I don't know, but I would be using the 21-24 pt ones in my swarm mostly.
Just a quick little rundown from my perspective, fr what its worth. What do you think?
I think feeder tendrills for sure, and as someone who plays 4-5 broods of stealers, scuttlers on two of them could be nice; especially when you are playing on the half board if you can outflank from the side (I am also ignorant of the rule). If you can't outflank then I would skip it because like you said, they are a second wave assaulter.
I think toxin sacs could be nice, with less rending kills strength 5 could really take down some enemies, but I am going to have to play test it. The only thing to say is that for the price most people used to play, you can now get strength 5 re-rolls to hit. That should be nasty.
I would not take extended carapace or scything talons because they are not cost effective. And here is why. Each one costs 1/4th of a stealer. So if you take 8 upgraded stealers I get 10 standard strock stealers. Then the numbers game begins.
ap5 Wounds taken--0 1 2 3 4 5 6
Carapace --8 7.5 7 6.5 6 5.5 5
Standard stock --10 9 8 7 6 5 4
For the EC stealer to become more effecient than a normal stealer you have to take 5-6 wounds from ap5 (and only ap5) shooting. If the standardstock stealer get any kind of cover they are always more effecitve, and if they any take wounds from weapons that are either ap4 or 6 they are also better. Once they get into hand to hand they are also better because they will get their save against anything that lets the EC stealer have it.
The scything talon upgrade is much the same way.
Wounds taken --0 1 2 3 4
# attacks charging --
Scything talons --32 28 24 20 16
standard stock --30 27 24 21 18
The scything talons are only good at the extreme end of the spectrum and in how many games are your stealers unharmed by the end of a game in which they made it to the enemies lines and done some damage? Having the extra stealers will be worth it every time because as soon as you lose one of your ST stealers we are about even, and I have two more wounds than you.
Feeder tendrils in my opinion are a bit of a waste. Assuming all 12 genestealers in a full brood get their attacks on the charge, against MEQ you should get 24 hits. With feeder tendrils that goes up to 32.
I feel the flesh hooks are more important. Getting your init reduced to 1 in 5th ed for assaulting into cover really hurts. Frags now force the entire combat to operate at normal init. Think about this, one of the reasons stealers cost so much is because the cost of the high initiative is built into the price of the model. Plus 5th ed really makes players hug terrain so stealers will rarely assault a unit out in the open.
So on the question of feeder tendrils vs. flesh hooks:
8 extra hits on the charge (or 5 extra if you don't get the charge)
Having your opponent get all their swings in before you do when charging into cover.
Just my 2 cents.
"The internet perceives censorship as damage, and routes around it."
Flesh hooks are definitely good though. Shame they can't both be taken...Though if I remember correctly, if the enemy is already engaged, which they should be for a second wave assault stealer, then they strike at regular initiative, so thats something to consider as well.
Toxin sacs, hard to say. While rending is definately lessened, I think it is not nerfed, like people eem to think. Most every rending unit in the nid list can hit well enough, and with feeder tendrils thats incresed as well. I was thinking keep sacs off em, as rending wounds are all that matters, but more saves are better.
I can see your point on the ST as well. I guess I hand't thought of the math like that. Toxin sacs might be the better way to go then. Again, my knowledge is mostly based on theory at the moment, as I am just starting out.
So I would say cost effectiveness, you are looking at a 20 pt stealer with feeder tandrils and toxin sacs, or a 21 pt one with feeder tenrils and scything talons. replace tendrils with flesh hooks as deemed neccesary.
Thanks for the input.
Well I'd sit it out and wait till we recieve our FAQ.
Imho the feeder tendrils and acid maw atm seems too good to be true.
Everyone is also talking about how rending nerfed vehicles but you also have to consider that now you hit em in the rear armor. a 6 is then always through a vehicle.
Also has anyone thought about devilgaunts for objective scoring ?
18 inch of beetle 'o death fire
Hive Fleet Lucanus : 2000 points
I would just take Feeder Tendrils on my stealers. Only 1 extra point and you hit 8 out of every 9 attacks-> it makes the changes to rending nearly negligable and it increases the wound output from normal attacks, too. The tendrils stealer will probably be our most effect build in fifth as the cost increase is so small combined with guant/ripper shields, and we can lose the tendrils for flesh hooks and bring in a 2+ cover save lictor for preferred enemy if we want.
Which would be more effective as a shield, anyways? Rippers or guants? Rippers have a higher wound/point ratio, but we only lose 1 guant to a plasma gun or a lascannon, and guants only take 1 wound each from a blast weapon. On the other hand, if we hide a ripper behind something it gets a 3+ cover save....
40K armies: Tyranids (2001), Space Wolves (2008), Sisters of Battle (2011)
Current Rep: 1337
Well personally I will be utilizing lictors to provide most of my feeder tendril support, and flesh hooks on my stealers. As for extended carapace, in 4th edition my stealers never left the hive with out it; however, with gaunt screening providing a 4+ cover save I would rather spend the EC points else where, so my stealers will likely just be sporting hooks and that is all. Also with outflank I will probably be considering a broodlord again with feeder tendrils to for addition support.
Primary Army: Tyranids; Secondary Army: Space Wolves
It's Illeagle, but it' s not that illeagle. - John Public
Genestealers will rend half as often for the same cost, and while they'll generally find it easier to gain cover, the chance to kill a 16 (or likely more) point model that only has 1 wound and a 4+ save is something most people would leap at the chance for.
Unless there's an FAQ of some sort on them, Feeder Tendril support to complementary units is their best and only universally-useful value, IMO.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
I play four broods of stealers so I will probably use two with fleshhooks and two with feeder tendrils. Then I will try to keep them close together so they can charge the same unit at the same time. then the fleshhook unit goes first, gets the re-rolls, and the tendril unit will clean up whatever mess is left.