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I'm beginning to think...are regular nobz really worth it?
For 340 points, you can get a unit of 8 nobz w/2 powerklaws, painboy upgrade, cybork bodies, waughh banner, bosspole, and trukk with a ram.
For those same points, you could use 2 units of 12 slugga boyz w/nob upgrade, powerklaw, bosspole and trukk with a ram, and have enough points left over for a rokkit buggy.
Is the unit of nobz really superior to 2 units of regular slugga boyz? They're superior to one unit, certainly, but if both trukks full of slugga boyz attack both sides of the same unit, they'll get a total of 88 regular attacks, and 8 powerklaw attacks (5th edition). The nob unit, by comparison, would get 30 regular attacks, and 8 powerklaw attacks. Granted, the nobz would have a WS of 5, strength of 5, and initiative of 4 on the charge, but let's do the math (without powerklaw attacks, since they'd be the same for both sides):
Against a 10 man marine tactical squad, with bolters and a Sgt w/close combat weapon, the nobz would get 20 hits = 13 wounds on the charge = 4 dead marines. The marines would attack at the same time and most likely kill 1 nob (after feel no pain) worth 25 points.
The marines would attack before the regular boyz, killing 2 boyz worth 12 points. The boyz would then get 40 hits = 20 wounds = 6-7 dead marines.
The boyz have lost less (in points) and killed more. I'm not seeing an advantage to regular nobz. With them, you're not only putting all your eggs into one basket, but they aren't even as effective as the same number of points in boyz.
Meganobz (relatively cheap) and biker nobz definitely have their places (regular warbikers are pathetic in close combat), but what does everyone think of the regular nob? Is there something I'm missing?
Nobz need their toys.
Two's to kill. Ahh, sweet sweet music.
Well, first your math is a little off. When the marines attack back at the nobz they will have 12 attacks, so 6 hits, 3 wounds, 2 after cybork, 1 after FNP, so they will be unable to kill any nobz and theoretically cause no points of damage. If you wanted to you could say 12.5 though just to be thorough. When the boyz get attacked they will take about 4 casualties (11 attacks, 7 hits, 4 wounds, 4 casualties), so 24 points of received damage. They will then have 19 models to attack back, meaning 76 attacks, 38 hits, 19 wounds, 6.33 wounds, which would be best rounded to 6 flat. This would mean that the nobz cause 60 - 12.5 = 47.5 pnts total, while the boyz cause 90 - 24 = 66 pnts total. The points still balance to the boyz, but not quite as extremely as previously figured.
I think that the biggest benefit of the nobz would be in the prolonged combat or when they get charged. If the marines were to charge the nobz they would kill one of them and get about six wounds in return. If the marines weren't broken after this they would be trapped in combat and set up for a counter charge from elsewhere or just ground up over a couple of rounds. If the marines charged one of the truck boyz they would do 21 attacks, 14 hits, ~9 wounds, kill about 8 after saves, and take 2-3 in return. This would probably lead to the boyz being broken and killed and give the marines a chance to consolidate into a good position. On the same token if the marines rapid fired the boyz they would have about 20 shots and kill about 8 and rendering the mob almost completely useless, while if they shot the nobz they would cause about 3 wounds, only killing 1 nob and leaving the mob at almost full combat potential.
This does ignore the other mob of boyz unconsidered, so lets try it out: put them in a situation where the boyz get out get out of their vehicles and are left in a position to be attacked by a unit of marines, (this could be from poor waagh rolls, misjudging distances, a successful combat, etc., and they are of course put in this position to show the effectiveness of the nobz). The marines move up, charge one mob, wipe it out and overrun. The other mob charges them, taking 3 casualties initially, then causing 32-16-8- 3 wounds + 5- 3 wounds from the powerklaw. So the marines lose combat, are outnumbered 3 to one and have a fifty fifty chance to hold on a 7 (honestly, who doen't take the super force commander to make everyone LD 10). If they hold to the next round, (and if no countercharge is set up from assault marines or something), the marines have 4 attacks back, about 1 wound caused, so the boyz hit back and finish off the marines but leaving the boyz at about one quarter of their original potential. If you run the same scenario with the nobz, you find that the nobz will take two casualties from the charge and shooting combined while causing 9 wounds to the marines, probably breaking them in one round of combat. This leaves the orks again the victors but the nobz are at over 75% of their original combat potential, (since they still have 2 klaws).
All this being said it is still just mathhammer and I don't have that much experience with nobz, so I could be slightly confused over what they are likely to do. I have only ever heard raving reviews about nob mobs from other people though so I would tend to believe that they are more than worth it as an investment.
Don't forget, 8 nobs in a trukk will practically all survive if the trukk gets blown up. Mathhammer wise it would be 4 wounded, 3 after cybork, 1-2 wounds after FNP. Compared to boys (both trukks lost in a turn isn't too unlikely) =8 wounded total, 6-7 casualties, so you have 2 squads of 8-9 remaining. 15 boys and 2 nobs are hardly going to stand up to the follow up "Kill them while their on foot" shooting, but the nobs will at least take a lot more an be worth it for saving your other boys. Not to mention I usually lose 5-6 boys per trukk when they pop.
I'm afraid all your math after that is wrong, because you seem to either believe that ork boys have WS 3, or marines have WS 5. In actuality, their weapon skill is both 4, so the marines need 4's to hit, and vice versa.
If the marines have 11 attacks, this results in 5 hits (not 7), and 2 wounds. That's 2 ork boyz killed, not 4.
You are correct about my nob error though, and if you go by math, both ork squads have lost the same number of points from the marine attacks (12), but the advantage is still to the regular ork boyz rather than the nobz, as they've killed more marines.
No, trukks don't cause as much damage as regular vehicles when they're destroyed. First, on a roll of 5+, all the occupants take no damage at all. After that, they all only take a strength 3 hit, with regular saves allowed.
Statistically (assuming they take damage, and don't get the 'no damage' result), the 12 regular boyz take 4 wounds, and make one save, killing 3.
The 8 nobz statistically take 3 wounds, make 1 save, and feel no pain saves another, only causing a single wound.
Going by points, the nobz have lost 12 points, and the boyz have lost 18. Yes, the nobz are ahead, but only marginally so.
Yup I admit my mistake on the nobs, I changed the boys before I finalised the post but forgot the Nob math. You have however left out squad 2 of the boys in your math which makes the nobs quite a bit better. I left out the ramshakle rules deliberately as they apply to all 3 squads, statistically the nobs could get the no-boom and the other 2 squads do.
But like I said, I have a bad habbit of losing 5 boys to a trukk explosion which would be far less for nobs as
A) They are less in number so take less overall wounds
Have a better save (2 of them with FNP) and
C) 2 wounds means you may not actually lose a model and the squad maintains its original size.
Nobs I find a difficult issue. Mass shooting will generally wipe out anything no matter how tough it is. At least normal boyz can afford to take the casulties. Biker NObz are great, but again we have the mass shooting problem, not to mention now in 5th if a high enough ordannce or blast template hits them, every model is going to get hit and you're gonna lose a ton of points, i never like putting all eggs in one basket. Which is a shame coz I have 6 warbikers and everyone always bad mouths regular bikers, but 18 twin linked STR 5 shots followed by assault has to work against some things, I'm tempted to set 6 of them against my upcoming IG battle next week as that kind of fire followed by Orks assaulting has to count for something.
Meganobs however.......in a truck........with a warboss in mega armour.....I'm very tempted by now.
Nobz mobs are elite units, which makes them not only quantitatively different as shown by the mathhammer, but qualitatively different too. They pack the combat power of two units of boyz into one unit. In certain situations this can be useful, in others not. I can think of plenty of scenarios where having a single elite unit is more useful than multiple weaker ones (and vice versa).
Another thing about nobz mobs is that as far as I can tell 2 power klaws is not enough. PK's are a dramatic force multiplier. Once a nobz mob has had all its bodies, transport and equipment bought for it, that represents a huge investment in points. Adding a couple more PK's on top is not going to be a huge % cost increase, while greatly increasing its combat power. When a nobz mob has 4+ PK's nothing survives.
I still don't see a discernable advantage to nobz.
They lose points at the same rate as regular boyz in most cases, and for every case they'd last longer, there's another case the boyz would last longer.
Yes, if you loaded up the unit of nobz with more guys and twice as many powerklaws they'd be more destructive, but then we'd be comparing them to 3 trukks filled with boyz.
What it comes down to is having all your eggs in one basket, with one really expensive unit, is a disadvantage. Having the points divided up into multiple groups that have the option of working together, as if they were one really powerful unit, is an advantage, since they're more versatile.
After playing with them and looking at the math, I can't see any advantage. Some people have said that having one powerful unit, rather than 2 weaker units that can add up into one powerful unit, is better in some situations.
Could you name one of those situations? When would it be better to have one trukk full of nobz, rather than the same number of points in boyz, in multiple trukks?
Again, I'm not questioning the power of meganobz, which are a troop slaughtering bargain, or biker nobz, which are high speed harbingers of death. I'm just talking about regular vanilla nobz.