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  1. #1
    Born from Tears of Angels WraithGuardian's Avatar
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    No more deception...

    As much as I do not wish to admit, the races of 40k now loose their ability to deceive. With the 5th edition out, it became apparent that a player no longer has the right to hold secrets from his or her opponent. In terms of transport vehicles that is.

    Meaning if a raider is on the field, you are obligated to tell your opponent whats riding in it. Therefore ghost force tactic as of now on becomes completely useless as it loose its primary advantage of deception. And wych raiders from now on have large bull's eyes on them in terms of being the number one targets that the opponent is likely to target.

    In regards to other races, other than dark eldar, I find this even more stupid. An imperial guard player is now obligated to tell his opponent whats inside the chimeras, and so does a space marine player with his rhinos. Question, how in a world would you see through a metal wall of a tank to see what kind of crew is hiding inside?

    Anyone other than me here find this incredibly stupid?


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  3. #2
    Resident Mongoose Mongooseo's Avatar
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    It defeats the point of paying attention during the deployment phase for sure. Yes, I find in uniquely stupid. What else is there in this new set of rules? Especially in terms of army lists. Would there happen to be anything on the actual revealing of lists beforehand? That could wreck any WWP lists.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Dr. Paris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WraithGuardian View Post
    As much as I do not wish to admit, the races of 40k now loose their ability to deceive. With the 5th edition out, it became apparent that a player no longer has the right to hold secrets from his or her opponent. In terms of transport vehicles that is.

    Meaning if a raider is on the field, you are obligated to tell your opponent whats riding in it. Therefore ghost force tactic as of now on becomes completely useless as it loose its primary advantage of deception. And wych raiders from now on have large bull's eyes on them in terms of being the number one targets that the opponent is likely to target.

    In regards to other races, other than dark eldar, I find this even more stupid. An imperial guard player is now obligated to tell his opponent whats inside the chimeras, and so does a space marine player with his rhinos. Question, how in a world would you see through a metal wall of a tank to see what kind of crew is hiding inside?

    Anyone other than me here find this incredibly stupid?
    Not really. At my store we had a policy that you could look at the other guy's list if you wanted and vica versa. It was fine to ask what was in what transport too. I never saw it make much of a difference. In addition, I have a hard time imagining an army that was that dependent on being secretive. There are certain stragems, etc, that enhance the game, but as far as your transport issue, I'm surprised you guys would even care that much.

    As far as it being unfluffy/stupid, your raiders are essentially open hover platforms, so your opponent could (and should) see what troops are in what. There's no logical reason they couldn't besides trying to bend the rules to give yourself an advantage. For everything else, there is this thing called military intelligence...

  5. #4
    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    Not only were my lists open to them I usually gave them a copy of it but I placed a mini on the running board representing who was on it. So my archon would ride on the side board of the raider he was on - I never cared for shell game or secrecy. I do hope my opponent forgets what is what but he would totally be to blame if he couldn't figure out which raider was which.
    "On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]

  6. #5
    Senior Member sendaf's Avatar
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    even if the the raider is open topped, it will probably be above your head untill it is to late for you. It will also be moving at extreme speeds.

    i think that you are allowed to ask your opponent to see his army list and ask him what a squad is equiped with in 5th (not 100%).

    I remember reading that the reason for doing this is they wanted warhammer to be won based on your skill as a player, not being able to pull a fully equiped archon out of no where and yelling SURPRISE...

    If you ask me, predicting that your opponent will be doing somthing and keeping note of what units the enemy has and where they are is a pretty good requirement of playing skills.
    "Thank him who puts me loath to this revenge on you who wrong me not for him who wrongd"

  7. #6
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WraithGuardian View Post
    As much as I do not wish to admit, the races of 40k now loose their ability to deceive. With the 5th edition out, it became apparent that a player no longer has the right to hold secrets from his or her opponent. In terms of transport vehicles that is.

    Meaning if a raider is on the field, you are obligated to tell your opponent whats riding in it. Therefore ghost force tactic as of now on becomes completely useless as it loose its primary advantage of deception. And wych raiders from now on have large bull's eyes on them in terms of being the number one targets that the opponent is likely to target.

    In regards to other races, other than dark eldar, I find this even more stupid. An imperial guard player is now obligated to tell his opponent whats inside the chimeras, and so does a space marine player with his rhinos. Question, how in a world would you see through a metal wall of a tank to see what kind of crew is hiding inside?

    Anyone other than me here find this incredibly stupid?


    Hi Wraith, long time no see.

    I am going to try and put forth the case for the affirmative here and although I have enjoyed a decade of ‘deception’ I truly feel if anyone needs this to win then something is lacking.

    WYSIWYG – one of the cornerstones of the game, upheld in all tournaments of any worth and ensures smooth indisputable play around the world.
    What You See Is What You Get – not so under 4th Ed. You can see a transport and yet have little or no idea as to what it contains within and if questioned, well the rules back up the rights to secrecy all the way and it becomes a game of chance to determine if they can get it right.
    This to me seems beyond the scope of the game and throws many tactics out the window.

    If you knew what was coming at you in advance, in that you can ‘see’ what you are getting yourself into I would better plan a defense for it.
    If I don’t know what is coming at me, then it becomes organized chaos and a game of chance – especially so with Dark Eldar as Raider units placed in a portal waiting to become available can contain just about anything!

    Wouldn’t you feel better about playing the game with a higher level of transparency?
    Wouldn’t you feel better about winning a game more on the merits of your play rather than a poor guest for the opponent.

    I would and I would feel more empowered by it.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwiKwag View Post
    Not only were my lists open to them I usually gave them a copy of it but I placed a mini on the running board representing who was on it. So my archon would ride on the side board of the raider he was on - I never cared for shell game or secrecy. I do hope my opponent forgets what is what but he would totally be to blame if he couldn't figure out which raider was which.

    I'm with you there Kwi. In the past I used to do this all the time... one day someone pointed out that I didn't have to do it... but I have always thought that it was fair for the opponent to know so they couldn't claim that i was cheating.

    I have also used the decpetion before and played with a "Ghost Ship" list to show some of my regular opponents other things that Dark Eldar can do on the table.

    With the idea that you have to show what is in transports I don't really care. That being said though I thought that it was more that you had to show your opponent the list that you were using and that there was nothing about telling him what was in the transports?

    I noticed that people call it decpetion although i have never thought that this would be the case... in all honesty if you pay attention to your opponent then you would know what were in the raiders if anything.

    There are arguments for this and against this whole "showing what's in your transports" I couldn't care and it doesn't bother me as much but I have always thought that it was in a way fair... If you pay attention to your opponent and what he deployed there was no real surprise.

    As for showing people army lists before the game I am totally for it! especially showing the points for the units... I say this as I have come across the odd player who feilds armies with 200+ more points than yourself and if you don't know their army well enough then you don't pick up on it and it ruins the game.

    I've always been open with my lists and have multipe written out so my opponent has easy access to everything that they need to know about my army... I guess that has come from being the only real Dark Eldar player in my region as well...

    Anyway I think I should end my rant here...

    Cheers
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  9. #8
    Dark Eldar Gerbil Splata's Avatar
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    This change in the rules does hurt us a bit.
    Although personally i don't believe it will hurt us as much as we imagine.
    Yes they can see what is on a raider but then how many of us play raider lists that much these days. I'll admit that i was looking forward to playing a few in 5th with the raiders becoming more powerful again but with my near loss experience (i pulled off a spectactular draw, write up coming) of against an ork hoard I am being swayed that more anti hoard weaponry is needed from a less fragile base. Plus kill points making it 1/3rd of games are instant lose.

    Showing the list. There are two ways this could be taken. Showing the list i don't feel is that bad as we get a large boon from that now we will know before time how much ordance and what type of list is coming. When it comes to WWP lists it could make it difficult because they will know what types of units to be shooting. The other way to take it is that we have to tell them which squad on the list is which and this will make it very difficult to hide a unit from being bombarded and targetted before the placement of the WWP.

    I see this rule as making it difficult for us although not impossible. It does look like we won't be the invincible fiends we once were in 4th though.
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  10. #9
    Member DARKTROOPER's Avatar
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    I believe that if its an opened topped vehicle or something you could logically see the inside of you should be able to know. But logically how can you know what something is inside of a rhino? Also I don't think one should have to reveal reserves, there is a reason for reserves, they're my trick to counter your trick! If you know what it is then its no longer a surprise. I always told people what was in my raider just to mess with them (I tell them they're going to die every turn).

    I also think it is important to make distinction between WYSIWYG because the former relies on what something is, a powerfist, a plasma pistol or a bolter. There is no room for variation it either is a bolter or it isn't and from the models perspective he would see and (maybe) recognize this. However in a vehicle you can see the vehicle and know it is transporting something but not its actual contents...Not that big of deal but still irks me personally...

  11. #10
    Striving for the right Ravenscraig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DARKTROOPER View Post
    I believe that if its an opened topped vehicle or something you could logically see the inside of you should be able to know. But logically how can you know what something is inside of a rhino? Also I don't think one should have to reveal reserves, there is a reason for reserves, they're my trick to counter your trick! If you know what it is then its no longer a surprise. I always told people what was in my raider just to mess with them (I tell them they're going to die every turn).

    I also think it is important to make distinction between WYSIWYG because the former relies on what something is, a powerfist, a plasma pistol or a bolter. There is no room for variation it either is a bolter or it isn't and from the models perspective he would see and (maybe) recognize this. However in a vehicle you can see the vehicle and know it is transporting something but not its actual contents...Not that big of deal but still irks me personally...
    Good beans, Dark Trooper. You've said exactly what I would have said. I would add that it would not be unreasonable to have some knowledge of how many and of what type of vehicles your opponent had and whether there was any additional infantry. Additionally, whether those infantry were of a specific type, etc, etc.

    Having any any more than that and we are assuming a level of scouting/intelligence that is, I would suggest, more than a little unlikely. No Commander can realistically expect to go into an engagement knowing exactly what weaponry every one of his opponents is carrying. Some prior knowledge is realistic, but knowing every detail of your opponents Army is not.

    On the point of Reserves, I certainly share your point of view. At a recent comp I was asked what I had in Reserve. I replied, perhaps more waspishly than I should have, that this was for me to know and for him to guess since he had no way of realistically knowing what I might have in Reserve. Result was a bad sportsmanship mark for me which, I felt, was a little peevish, given that it was a comp, after all. But whilst there is certainly room to tidy this area up, I don't believe simply handing out a list to your opponent priot to a game is necessarily the best solution. After all, being able to cope effectively with an element of surprise is the hallmark of a better general, I would suggest (something I, myself, am not particularly good at - before too many fingers are pointed my way for being smug!)

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