5th Edition Markerlights: Reducing Cover Saves vs. Modified Cover Saves - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Senior Member lLonginus's Avatar
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    5th Edition Markerlights: Reducing Cover Saves vs. Modified Cover Saves

    Okay, so it doesn't just affect 5th Edition, but I figured I was on a roll (came up with a lot of thoughts at work, you see, and now that I'm home I can type them all up for us to discuss). I just recently wrote a thread in the Tyranid forum about Lictors getting bonuses to their cover saves and whatnot, and after writing about markerlights I was struck with yet another question: Some units, such as lictors, can modify their cover save passively, to the point where they get the best save possible (2+ cover). However, for the sake of my current debate, say the lictor was Lurking (+1 to cover save) in a fortified building (3+ cover save) with its chameleonic scales (+2 to cover save). Mathematically speaking, the lictor would have a 0+ cover save (3-2-1=0 ). Now say that in this situation, a squad of pathfinders marks the lictor 5 times with their markerlights. A broadside uses all 5 tokens to reduce the lictor's cover save, hits it with a railgun round, and wounds it, which can quite potentially insta-kill the lictor. Do the five cover-reducing markerlight tokens reduce the lictor's cover save to:
    -+ (2+ is a 5/6 chance, -5/6=0/6 chance to save)
    5+ (0+ is a 7/6 chance, -5/6=2/6 chance to save)
    Basically, I'm asking if the Lictor's cover save enhancement will maintain enhanced cover save after its cover save has been reduced. What's your take, /Tau/?

    Last edited by lLonginus; June 27th, 2008 at 20:05.
    My gaming group's new motto: That army you're using is overpowered because it hurts my guys, codex is broken and needs a rewrite.

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  3. #2
    Member Jngu's Avatar
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    Markerlights would reduce the lictor's cover save by however many you want to use up. The max cover save he can have is 1+ (which would be a 2+ if a normal broadside fired at it since 1's always fail), and 5 markerlights would bring that to 6+, and 6 markerlights would nullify any cover save.
    Last edited by Jngu; June 25th, 2008 at 07:45.
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    Member CrimsonWraith's Avatar
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    I would think it would be a 5+ (3-2-1+5=5). You may not be able to use anything less than 2+, but you still have the bonuses.
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  5. #4
    ....coookies... GDMNW's Avatar
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    I'm voting for the second

    I am voting for the second explanation. This is actually an interaction of two rules. First are the cover save rules and second is the principle that a roll of a one is always a failure. If you have BS8 then you would get to hang on to your 2+ to hit despite modifiers while BS5 guys would be hit straight away.

    I think the same goes for cover saves. If you have a cover save of 0+ then a roll of one is an automatic fail but your save is still 0+ so if you are -3 due to markerlights on your save then you will be rolling a 3+ cover save...



  6. #5
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarahemna View Post
    I am voting for the second explanation. This is actually an interaction of two rules. First are the cover save rules and second is the principle that a roll of a one is always a failure. If you have BS8 then you would get to hang on to your 2+ to hit despite modifiers while BS5 guys would be hit straight away.

    I think the same goes for cover saves. If you have a cover save of 0+ then a roll of one is an automatic fail but your save is still 0+ so if you are -3 due to markerlights on your save then you will be rolling a 3+ cover save...
    The Lictor gets +2 to its cover save, so if it had a 4+ cover save then it would have a 2+ save. This is its cover save. All the chamelonic scales do is improve the cover save, it does not mean that the Lictor always gets a cover save because ML's can reduce a cover save to nothing.
    So Markerlights reduce cover saves, so if you hit the lictor with a 2+ save with 5 ML's it would have no cover save (2+SV-1=3+SV-1=4+SV-1=5+SV-1=6+SV-1=no save)
    Last edited by Rikimaru; June 26th, 2008 at 19:39.
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  7. #6
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarahemna View Post
    I am voting for the second explanation. This is actually an interaction of two rules. First are the cover save rules and second is the principle that a roll of a one is always a failure. If you have BS8 then you would get to hang on to your 2+ to hit despite modifiers while BS5 guys would be hit straight away.

    I think the same goes for cover saves. If you have a cover save of 0+ then a roll of one is an automatic fail but your save is still 0+ so if you are -3 due to markerlights on your save then you will be rolling a 3+ cover save...
    This sounds correct to me, too. 1s always fail, but that doesn't mean that the model can't have a save better than 2+. In 5th edition, models can have BS greater than 5, but 1s will still always miss. (BS scores greater than 5 confer a reroll at a particular score indicated by a table in the rulebook.)
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    ....coookies... GDMNW's Avatar
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    OK, so basically

    OK, so basically everyone agrees with me?

    That's awesome!

    Probably a first too.

    I guess we can all just get on with it then...



  9. #8
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    I thought lictor's got a cover save of 5+ even if they have no cover, in which case markerlights could not reduce this further since they can only reduce the cover save, not the bonus from the lictor... Is this somehow changing in 5th edition?
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  10. #9
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    I thought lictor's got a cover save of 5+ even if they have no cover, in which case markerlights could not reduce this further since they can only reduce the cover save, not the bonus from the lictor... Is this somehow changing in 5th edition?
    That doesn't make any sense. The lictor's save is a cover save. Markerlights can reduce cover saves. It doesn't matter how or where the cover save comes from. If it's a cover save, markerlights can reduce it.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
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  11. #10
    Senior Member lLonginus's Avatar
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    Lictors have a regular 5+ armour save.
    Lictors also always have a 5+ cover save.
    If a lictor is in cover, it gets +2 to the save conferred by the cover.
    A single markerlight hit can reduce a unit's cover save by -1 when the markerlight hit is used by a squad.

    The lictor's Stealth bonus gives it a 5+ cover saves, and markerlight hits can reduce cover saves by 1 point per hit, therefore the lictor can potentially have no cover save when marked enough times. However, the lictor will still have its regular armour save.
    My gaming group's new motto: That army you're using is overpowered because it hurts my guys, codex is broken and needs a rewrite.

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