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Actually now agoniser are consider poison weapon the way I read it in the rules. The rule states that re-roll to to wound when toughness of the enemy is equal or lower to the strength of wielder so either lord on bike with agoniser (S4)or animus vitae with agoniser (S4). This makes re-roll to wound vs pratically every troops.(which I suspect will become mandatory for a punisher dracon/archon).
If that is true i am a happy camper!
Just want to check. Is it ">=" or ">" for the poison bonus? because if it is just ">=" the agoniser just became the most solid choice! and wyches with the +1 S drug just became absolute gold!
nice find je_suis_roux!
This sounds like it would be really useful to have but I'm not seeing it, if you could direct me to where it is I would appreciate it.
I found it, and... woah...I don't think Agonisers count as a Poisoned Weapon, though. There's nothing that specifically links them to this rule.In addition, if the Strength of the wielder is the same or higher than the Toughness of the victim, the wielder must re-roll failed rolls to wound in close combat. These weapons confer no advantage against vehicles.
I've read the codex and it says nothing about Agonisers being poisoned weapons, unless I've missed something (I don't have the rule book, so it might be in there). But sissorhands and normal poisoned weapons just got a whole lot better, and more attractive to take.
Woho 2+ and reroll the misses? there shouldn't be any missis XD
But for the agoniser beeing a poison weapon.
It clearly stats in the RB, that poisen weapons are weapons that allways wound on the same roll, regardless of strength and toughness.
So the agoniser is clearly a weapon that allways hits on the same roll, so its a poisen weapon.
But shouldn't that bee diskussed in 5the Edition Threads?
~ Raven ~
the agoniser is truely not just a poisen weapon, as it counts as a energie weapon and can damage vehicles.
So it is a weapon that combines 2 universal weapon rules and has an extra rule.
but the wounding allways on the same roll is clearly an effect of a poison weapon, and I don't see the revers logic in there.
so the agoniser would be a poison energie weapon that can damage vehicles.
i don't see why the agoniser shouldn't be a special posion weapon.
I'm sorry if it sounds like wishfull thinking, it's not supposed to be ;-)
So i think that you think that, for the agoniser to be a poisen weapon, there should be a phrase in the Codex that says, agonisers are poisen weapons?
Then poisen blades would also not be a poisen weapon, cause in the Codex it says nothing that the poisen blades are poisen weapons.
Only that they wound on a certain roll, just as the agoniser but without the extra special rules of an agoniser.
that would leave me to the impression, that you think that the agoniser is no poisen weapon because he has on top of the normal poisen weapon rules some extra rules.
If i can that say that, for a wishfull thinker I have some good arguments, or not?;-)
Personally, I don't think Scissorhands OR Poisoned Blades OR agonisers are poisoned weapons. At the moment. Force Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning claws etc are all fairly limited in terms of the weapons that confer the rules, but power fists (which can be klaws) and power weapons have a common implementation whereby the description will allways either state they are a certain thing, or count as a certain thing.
While it is clear that these Dark Eldar weapons use rules ala poisoned weapons for wounding, none of them explicitly state they are poisoned weapons and therefore are not officially poisoned weapons, and given the fact that the 5th edition FAQ for Dark Eldar the perfect place to add errata which indicates these are poisoned weapons did no such thing, I wouldn't rely on it.
This is my stance in terms of what the rules actually indicate, however I will be discussing it with my regular group to see what they think and will most likely be using the poisoned weapons with these pieces of wargear because it seems to be the intention. Basically, yes I think these are probably meant to be poisoned weapons and I have no issue with using them, but don't bank on being able to use the poisoned weapons special rules in a tournament or anything, especially with the agoniser.
edit: I got distracted by discussing a RAW issue and forgot my main point, archon with agonizer + splinter pistol + animus + combat drugs for re-roll misses in CC, hits on a 3+ with rerolls against most things, wounds on a 4+ with rerolls against most things, no saves allowed. If you were game to put this all on a haemonculus it would be even meaner with the scissorhand, but of course the reduced WS could mean you don't get the 3+ to hit as much
In the german rule book it says, that poisen weapons go from blades dipped in poisen to blades that send out poisen underneath the skin. So a weapon with a poisen that effects the nerve system is clearly a poisen weapon? There is no use of the word poisen in the discription of the agoniser, but with what would you think is the nervsystem effected? with water or small spiks at the side of the blade?
clearly a poisen would effekt the nervsystem.
about clarifying the agoniser as a poisen weapon. It allways wounds on the same roll, and what other kind of weapon allways wounds on the same roll? So there would not be a clarifying needed 'cause it is obvious and as such it would not need any clarification.
clearly that would be a very good idea ;-) Funny that i suggested 10 posts befor that this disskussion should be place else where, and im the one still disscussing it here XD
Last edited by Ravenscraig; July 14th, 2008 at 11:17.
Well as discussed in another thread here is my question: See insertion of (almost successful combination of) posts above!!
Do Agonisers count as poison weapons?
pro: Agonisers allways wound on a certain roll, just like poison weapons.
contra: in the description of the agoniser there is no mention that it is a poison weapon.
I think the agoniser is a poison weapon, cause it clearly works as a poison weapon just with some more extra rules. for example the poison blades also work like poison weapons but are also not classified as poison weapons. Still no one would ever question that poison blades are no poison weapons, or would anyone?
Last edited by Ravenscraig; July 14th, 2008 at 11:23.
I've argued that it is, but fundamentally RaW says otherwise.
The irony is not even poisoned blades are poisoned weapons by RaW. Both the agoniser and poisoned blades match how poisoned weapons work perfectly (i.e wounding on X, regardless of toughness) but nowhere does it actually say they are poisoned.
It seems if you want to re-roll to wound you have to have a 5th ed codex (as they all list poisoned weaposn as having poisoned attacks).
Wounding on a set number+ and 'poison weapon' status is very different.
I was under the impression that while agonisers damaged on a certain roll, they weren't poison weapons.
Naturally, i will join you gentlemen and freaks in the argument that poison blades SHOULD function as poisonous weapons.
If you want to know the nitty gritty, I suggest purchasing and looking in the 5th Ed rule book (watch now as some complete idiot posts all the rules in this thread...T_T)
But mind you, with the Dark Eldar's pathetic strength, there won't be many occasions where they can take advantage of the extra poison rules.
Hmm, normally I would say no but without the rulebook I can't really give a judgement. It doesn't say that they are poisoned in the description, so my money is on no but this is GW so you never know.
Omg a signature!
*1: Although it would be a big stretch because both refer to "the user" making it pretty clear you only get +1s when using the weapon itself, not when using an agonizer with a hellglaive/punisher strapped to your back.
Edit: How did I read Dark Eldar as Eldar?
*drowns as he his horribly out of his depth*
I stand corrected ^_^
Having now had the chance to read carefully both my Codex and the Rules-set I would say that Dark Eldar Poisoned Blades should indeed ount as Poisoned Weapons - the descriptions are almost identical (the only additional bit in the new rule is to do with strength and re-rolls). However, there is nothing about the wording of the Agoniser entry in the Codex that makes me think it should count as a Poisoned Weapon.
~ Raven ~
I will most definatly side with the side that:
Agonisers SHOULD get re-rolls.
I can give both counter examples of cases where things are called something that they are not and also a case of what a poison weapon "is".
A poison weapons. "They do not rely on a comparison of S and T to wound- they always wound on a fixed number". That doesn't say that it has to be labeled poisoned. But more rather gives a description of what a poison weapon entails, much like a power weapon.
under the heading of close "combat weapons" it says weapons "are grouped into either of the following two categories: normal and special". It doesn't mention being disallowed from having multiple sub-categories within those (which poison and power weapons are part of).
Based on this I'd say they definatly are poisoned weapons and allow the re-roll if your modified strength is >= to toughness of enemy.
Counter example: wych weapons. these things aren't weapons (much simpler that one)
PS: that conglomerate OP is evil! needs more sub-quotations
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