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Hi, I'm a fairly new 40k player and have been creeping on the forums for quite a while. Because of this, I'm familiar w/ common Tau tactics such as the Fish of fury, etc. My question is that when your firewarriors are FoFing, would they not benefit if everyone have pulse carbines instead of rifles? I've noticed that many players take rifles over carbines due to their superior range but at this range would the carbines not be better? Also, is it a good idea to mix rifles w/ carbines in a squad? What would be the ideal ratio if it's at all recommended. Thanks.
well the main advantage to using pulse rifles in combination with the FoF is that if done correctly, your troops should be able to rapid fire at the enemy, and not get assaulted next turn, that is the general idea at least. With carbines however, you only get one shot per model, which would half the effectiveness of your FoF. so thats pretty much it, if you use rifles you get to rapid fire, and more shots = more dead stuff, at least thats the hope anyway!
Answering your second question, i do not believe it is a good idea to mix squads for a couple of reasons. One, the gun's ranges are very different, meaning that you would not be shooting with the full effectiveness of your squad outside of pulse carbine range, which is bad. Also, the point of having assault weaponry is the ability to move and shoot, unfortunately if you mix a squad of carbine and rifle users, and move the carbine guys, the entire squad will count as moving, giving you only 1 twelve inch shot per rifle Warrior, which again is not really that good. You may say that the ability to pin combine with the ability to shoot long distances, or rapid fire is good, as it can be, but often pinning doesn't do that much unless you are given markerlight support. however, in the end, it is all up to you, thats just what I think, use the rifle range, and rapid fire ability to destroy your enemy before it reaches you, and if they get close, use your devilfish! thats what they are there for!!!! hope that helps!
The ideal ratio between carbines and rifles in a firewarrior unit is all rifles, no carbines. This applies to the FoF tactic as well.
This is because within 12", the rifles get 2 shots each and the carbines get only one. This means they are twice as deadly.
Pinning is generally considered unreliable at best because most armies have high leadership ratings and often get rerolls.
If you like the idea of carbines, the general consensus is to take gun drone squadrons as a fast attack choice. I love those little guys, they are effective and very fluffy.
However, I would not say the carbine is a BAD weapon... just that most people, including myself, seem to think the rifle is superior. If you like carbines for whatever reason then by all means, use them.
Last edited by ZenGamer; July 17th, 2008 at 02:11.
-Thread Killer Bryan
Tyranid Hive Fleet Typhoeus
T'au Empire, Bork'an Sept
Another thing to consider: Markerlights. Using markerlights just got a little bit better for pin tests under 5e, and here's why.
1. "Insane Heroism" (auto-passing with double 1's) only applies to morale tests.
2. The new Tau 5e FAQ makes reference to using marker hits to drop a unit's Leadership so they automatically fail a pin test.
Now I'm not saying that lists should be built around this, as we've already established that there are many fearless units in the game; not to mention the better use of markers for heavier weapons. But, if you've got some markers freed up for a turn, maybe spare gun drones could be put to better use...
Last edited by psichotykwyrm; July 17th, 2008 at 07:12. Reason: spelling
"It takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous."
---Ogvai Ogvai Helmshrot, Jarl of Tra, VI Legion Astartes
Keep drones on your devilfish, and you can always have a couple of carbine shots in there as well ... and once in a while, luck does favor you!
But yeah, I also prefer pulse rifles for all the aforementioned reasons.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
I take 3 carbine 9 rifles, the chance at pinning is well worth it to me and losing 3 shots is minor. If i'm up against something with crazy ld, i just take off the carbines as casualties first. People are just haters against pinning. Combined with markerlights I pin things all the time.
With three, you will hit an average of 1.5 times, wound T3 an average of 1.25 wounds. Guard can't save, so it would be a pinning check. Eldar probably can, so it would be about .42 to .75 unsaved wounds for Save 3+ and 4+, respectively.
Against MEQ your chances go down further. 1.5 hits times 2/3 (T4) is 1 wound. Save on a 3+ means 0.33 unsaved wounds on average. This means it will only cause a pinning check twice per game on average against marines, assuming you fire all 6 turns.
Not good odds for pinning regardless of the results of the pinning check. I'd rather kill the 2 extra marines over the course of the game, which is statistically what those three shots you're losing will kill making the same assumption of rapid firing all 6 turns of the game.
-Thread Killer Bryan
Tyranid Hive Fleet Typhoeus
T'au Empire, Bork'an Sept
Lol thanks tips, I quite understand that the whole squad does not gain the pinning ability. You are assuming your squad in rapidfire range is going to survive a whole game to kill two extra marines. You are using very flawed logic for that arguement. I quite understand against marines it will not work as efficiently, but sometimes it does and can be a game maker. I suppose if you're FoF infront of a squad of marines and they're not assualting you for a whole game, then yes, you don't need pinning, you just need to stop playing against an imaginary opponent. When you look at a stationary target, you're only getting 1 shot up to 30" and I'm sure your gaming table isn't open and empty so how many turns do you get free shots at that range?
Now, taking into account how many different units there are that not only are Fearless - let's ignore the Fearless for a second here - but that have high Leadership values (I'd say around 8 and above), then I'd say that having an extra shot within 18" (after movement) is superior to a potential pin due to an over reliance on lucky/unlucky rolling. Even most Tau and Imperial Guard armies are going to have at least Ld. 8 in most cases (Shas'ui, Junior Officers' command areas, etc.), so pinning is extremely unreliable even against the typical "low Leadership" armies, and is even more so against Space Marines and other armies.
Compare that to an extra shot and, well, now you have something you can rely on a lot more; more chance to hit, more chance to wound, and more chance for a failed or ignored armour save. More chance of a casualty. Versus pinning, which has a small chance against almost all opponents to stop a unit from acting; I'd rather rely on killing power and focused firepower than the chance that something might happen.
As far as Fish of Fury goes, if you read the tactica thoroughly, the purpose of the tactic is to disembark, rapid fire, and deny the enemy from charging your Fire Warrior unit by putting the Devilfish and its drones out. It can be tricky to pull off yes, but how is that assuming none of the models will be killed when your Pulse Carbine unit gets fewer shots, I'm assuming still using Fish of Fury, and not taking casualties as well? No matter which way you look at it, you are relying at least in part on pinning, whereas a standard FoF squad is relying on killing power. They'll both be taking casualties, and until you remove your Carbine models due to kills, the standard Rifle squad will, in most cases, outperform a squad with even a single Pulse Carbine.
That said, I have played games where I've been able to shoot at over 12" at opponents for single shots, and within 12" with Rapid Fire, and my Fire Warrior squads haven't taken casualties.
And no, it wasn't an imaginary opponent, contrary to popular belief.