Welcome to Librarium Online!
I'm a math-hammer player. I admit it. Say what you want, it's helped me a lot in games. I really didn't win many matches at all until I stopped and actually figured out the math, to see what the best units were, and the best ways to field them.
With Flash Gitz, it's easy. There is no good way to use them. There is no circumstance where they're useful.
Now, I'm not just saying this out of the blue. I actually figured out the math, and there's no way you can take them where they're effective.
First of all, despite what people may say, they're not effective shooters. A unit of 6 flash gitz with one painboy will fire 10 shots a turn (always take the shot upgrade), getting 3.33 hits. Assuming you pay for the strength upgrade, that gets you 2.78 wounds, and taking the random AP into consideration, results in 1.85 dead marines. That's not bad, but 15 lootas will get 30 shots on average, getting 10 hits, 8 wounds, and 2.67 dead marines. Yes, lootas have to stand still to fire, but their range is literally double that of the Flash gitz, and they kill about 1 more marine a turn on average, and that's something flash gitz are supposed to do better than other units.
Flash Gitz don't outshoot shoota boyz either. A tripped out flash gitz costs the same as 6 shoota boyz, and the shoota boyz can also move and fire 12 shots, getting 4 hits, 2 wounds and 0.66 kills a turn. One flash gitz only gets around 0.37 marine kills a turn. The shoota boyz are almost twice as good. Yes, they're range is slightly shorter, but is that worth halving their effectiveness over?
Clearly, the Flash Gitz can only possibly make up the difference by also fighting in the assault phase. If the 6 flash gitz with the painboy also assault the enemy, they'd strike at the same time as marines (we'll assume marines, as they're the most common opponent), and get 25 attacks, resulting in 12 hits, 6 wounds, and 2 dead marines. That's 3.78 dead marines total, for the round.
I think the Flash Gitz work best if they have both a powerklaw and bosspole in the unit (otherwise they'll be running quick). A warboss with a powerklaw, bosspole, cybork, 'eavy armor and an attack squig will cost 115 points, but it'll add 6 powerklaw attacks, resulting in 4 hits, and 3.66 dead space marines. Counting the shooting phase, his kills go up to 3.77 (assuming a shoota). The warboss does just as much damage, by himself, as all the Flash Gitz did in their shooting and assault phase COMBINED. Keep that in mind.
Instead of Flash Gitz, how about 20 shoota boyz with a nob, powerklaw and 2 big shootas? Assuming the same situation above, the shoota boyz would get 35 shots, resulting in 11-12 hits, and 5-6 wounds. The big shootas then fire 6 shots, getting 2 hits, and 1 wound. The marines make their saves, and 2 die.
In the assault, the marines would strike first, and assuming the upcoming new Marine rules, where they can switch out their bolters for close combat weapons and pistols, the marines will get 17 attacks (assuming a tactical squad), 8-9 hits, 4-5 wounds, and 4 dead orks. The remaining orks get 45 regular attacks, for 22 hits, and 11 wounds. The marines altogether have to make 11 armor saves in the assault, losing 3-4 more guys. The nob gets 4 powerklaw attacks, 2 hits, and 1-2 kills.
Altogether, the marines lost 6-8 guys. The warboss combined with the Flash Gitz killed between 7-8.
Oh so the Flash Gitz came out ahead, right?
The flash gitz, combined with the warboss, cost 385 points.
The shoota boyz cost 170.
It doesn't take a math nerd to see that Flash Gitz simply don't add up. They have to struggle to be marginally better than a unit that costs 215 points less than they do.
If that isn't enough, if you run a full unit of 30 grotts with 3 Runthereds with Grabba sticks through the same situation, you kill 3 Space Marines.
The 6 Flash Gitz, without counting the warboss, killed 3.78 Marines. 245 points of Flash Gitz can't even kill 1 more Marine a turn than 120 points of Grotts.
In case you're getting ready to argue their 'durability', keep this in mind:
In the above scenarios, 5 grotts died (15 points) and 4 shoota boyz died (24 points). The Flash Gitz would have lost a single member of their team (after the armor and feel no pain roll), costing 35 points. That's almost as much as the losses of the other two examples combined.
Sorry, but Flash Gitz are inferior any which way you look at them. If you like them, then use 20 shoota boyz with a nob, powerklaw, bosspole and 2 big shootas. They do everything Flash Gitz do, at less than half the cost.
(Let me know if I screwed up any of the math, but it looks pretty good to me.)
Last edited by mynameisgrax; July 31st, 2008 at 17:23. Reason: Forgot one thing
Wow you really took your time doing this post. I have nerver liked Flash Gitz because it costs to much. But this really shows it that they aren't worth taking.But If they have Kaptin Badrukk with them how would the math look like?
Flash gitz look soo nice, I've always thought about using them but the math hammer around it is so hideous.
wow. Your MathHammer is impressive and Godly. Well above my own. In fact I hate math. I've hated math ever since I knew what math was. We just don't get along. I even wrote a 40k Inquisiton syle rant on my hatred of math on LO. (orginally posted on my Facebook, but no one got the joke.) http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ant-enjoy.html (A Rant. A 40k style Rant. Enjoy)
While I don't doubt your impressive math skills, part of the Great Orkspiriment is to get out of the realms of MathHammer and paper and onto the battle field. Put the theory to the test so to speak. Who knows, maybe the MathHammer will prove accurate, and the majority of ork players will be right in voting Flash Gitz the worst unit in the codex. But who knows? Maybe we'll be wrong. Plenty of things that don't make sense on paper make perfect sense in the real world after all.
However I'd like to thank you for your MathHammer. This will be the first phase of the Great Orkspiriment. The next phase will take place on the field of battle. See if the MathHammer lives up.
My award winning Orky tale
Thanks for the nice feedback everyone. ^_^ Unfortunately, I'm not really good at the higher math (Geometry and Calculus), but I've always been great at statistics.
Badrukk doesn't help much, I'm afraid. He only has 3 shots with BS 2, so only gets 1 hit every round, on average. That hit is almost certainly going to result in a dead Marine, and the leadership boost is nice, but you're better off spending the points on a warboss with a bosspole, or 3 more Flash Gitz. He just costs too much. If they wanted him to be worth taking, they should have made his gun twin linked. As it stands, it just isn't worth it.
Alright, Lord Trebor, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.
I'll take part in the orksperiment. Specifically, I'll run two units, one with the optimum setup I found for Flash Gitz: 6 Flash Gitz w/painboy, the extra shot and strength boost (I forget the names), and cybork, with the aforementioned warboss (in the original post) attached. I'll put this unit in a battlewagon. I'm not sure how I'll equip the wagon yet.
At the same time, I'll field 20 shoota boyz w/nob, powerklaw, bosspole and 2 big shootas in an identical battlewagon.
I'll play both units in the same list, and see how they measure up against each other. Going by points, the Flash Gitz would have to be more than twice as effective as the shoota boyz, in order to warrant their points.
Last edited by mynameisgrax; July 31st, 2008 at 19:13. Reason: forgot one thing
Very nicely put grax, though I think you've missed 2 important things here:
1 - Gitfindas! Ok yea, they mean little in this comparison scenerio, but in my group of friends I am the Rules Guru, yet I have 1 friend who tries to rules lawyer all the time, even against me. Thus its priceless when I pre-measure my shooting attacks with the Gitz and he gets all up-in-arms
2 - More seriously though, you've covered the Orks firing, the Orks attacking in CC and the Orks being attacked in CC, but you have missed the Orks being fired at.
10 Marines = 20 rapid Fire bolter shots = 13.4 hits = 6.7 wounds
= 6.7 dead shoota boyz = Morale test for a squad of 16 or less
= 6.7 dead grotz = Morale test
= 1.67 wounds on the Flash Gitz
And that is simply vs some rapid fire, take blast weapons and such into account and the durability of the Gitz begins to add up.
Other things to consider:
Gitz shooting at 2+ saves mobs - They have a 1 in 3 chance of negating the armour save
Gitz shooting at Vehicles - The 5 Str (6 with upgrade) allows then to take aim at the front of a Rhyno.
I'm not defending the playability of the Gitz, as I agree they aren't superb (though I do intend to convert some) and we have much better units, but I am saying that there is more to them than you've mathhammered. I'm on your level with math (have a degree in it) and I'm always punching numbers. But I also take the many variables into account as 40k is much much more than numbers.
I took all that into account.
The flash gitz have a 50% chance of ignoring a marine's 3+ armor save. Don't take the upgrade to improve the AP, it's not worth the 'gets hot' drawback, even if it was free. Anyway, you normally have a 1 in 3 chance of getting through the Marine's armor save, and since the flash gitz ignore it half the time, this increases their odds of getting through the marine save to 2 in 3. That's added into all the calculations. Effectively, the marines only have a 5+ save versus the gitz. It's still not enough to make up the difference.
Against terminators, the gitz have a 1 in 3 chance of ignoring the terminator's save, giving them a 4/9 chance of getting through their armor, effectively giving them a 4+ save versus the gitz. After some math...we find that the unit of 5 gitz + painboy (6 models total) kill 1.24 terminators. The 15 Lootas kill 1.33 and the 20 shootas (w/nob, 2 big shootas) shoot down 1.17 termies, and even the grots manage 0.83. The gitz are admittedly far ahead of the grots, but everything else is comperable, and less expensive.
As for leadership, with the re-roll on the morale saves, thanks to bosspoles, the shoota boyz would have between an 84-99% chance of success. That's pretty safe odds to me.
The marines actually kill 11 grots, not 7. This would definitely force a morale save, but their odds of passing are still 84% until all the runthereds are dead. That's still pretty good.
The flash gitz don't have to take a check, granted, but odds are the other two units will pass, and the shoota boyz may not have to take a check at all. I think this leadership difference is more than offset by the fact that unless the Flash Gitz take badrukk, or have a character with a bosspole attached, they only have a 58% chance of passing their morale check, and that's not counting any negative modifiers in close combat.
Even if you go by points, the grots lost 33 points, the shoota boyz lost 24-30, and the Flash Gitz most likely lost 20-40 (counting a lost wound as a % of total cost). The only way you could argue the Flash Gitz came out far ahead is by arguing they physically lost less models. If that's your definition of success, than you should be playing Marines. ^_^
Whew! That's a lot of math-hammer even for me. I think I need to lie down.
Thanks for the replies everyone, especially Monkeyclops! I want to be absolutely sure I cover all the bases.
Last edited by mynameisgrax; July 31st, 2008 at 21:21. Reason: made a mistake
EDIT: But I do agree, via mathhammer Gitz are not worth it compared to Shoota Boyz. Let's not forget that Shoota Boyz are also scoring where the Gitz are not!
Though Badrukk is a nasty bugger to consider in a higher points game
Last edited by Monkeyclops; July 31st, 2008 at 20:29.
What about vs 2+ armor, like terminators?