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As some of you may know there has been a lot of buzz about Flash Gitz lately. This, I admitt is my fault. I wanted to see for myself, if Flash Gitz are really that bad. I and a lot of other people voted them the worst unit in the codex, however, a lot of our analyisis came from the realms of MathHammer and theory, not the battlefield. So I proposed the Great Orkspiriment. To see if we as Ork players are missing something. After all, what looks good/bad on paper sometimes doesn't hold true. Real life is full of examples like that. A few other visionaries have decided to join my quest (and I thank you all profoundly. Rep will be given in due time)
So the Great Orkspiriment begins.
The Goal: To see if Flash Gitz are really as bad as the MathHammer/theory says they are. If they are-fine. No surprises there. We'll go back to our old Orky ways and field lootas instead. Battlewagons, Boom wagons, and killa kans will dominate our Heavy Support lists just like before with Gitz being fielded for fluffy/fun lists only.
But if we're wrong... We will have proven that the MathHammer is fallible. We as orks will have a new ace in the hole. A new dimmension to our lists. Imagine the looks on peoples faces when we, as an army, prove MathHammer wrong. More than likely this will not happen, but still... An Ork can dream can't he?
The Format: This thread will be used for the various mini-battle reports of the Great Orkspirments participants. A rough template would look like this:
Your ork varient (Speed Freak, Green Tide ect.)
Opponent's Army and varients of (i.e Space Marines-Dark Angels or Tyrinids- Nidzilla/shooty nids)
Short description of the battle with emphesis on how the Flash Gitz preformed. Do you think they helped or hurt you?
And last but not least: How you equipped them. Were they in a transport of footslogging it?
If you have any questions about the Orkspiriment messege me directly. (We don't want to clogg the thread.) And lets not try to compare lists on the Army Lists section either. We don't want to clogg it up and annoy the people not participating. Variations in our lists will only result in better results anyway. Besides if we were interested in uniformity we'd play space marines
I look forward to your responses and the results or our Great Orkspiriment.
PS please don't post things like "Flash Gitz suck" and go off on mathhammer tangents. There's other threads for that.
Great idea for a thread to give some order to the conversation.
Last edited by Zatnugg; August 1st, 2008 at 06:28.
"Orks have to be followers of Nurgle! They're green, smell bad, and just want to spread the fun!"
I accidently posted my battle report at the same time this was posted in the thread Flash Gitz dismantled. I'll see about moving it over here but if I don't you may referrence it there. I'll just keep an eye on both of these threads to answer any questions you might have on my experience.
"Orks have to be followers of Nurgle! They're green, smell bad, and just want to spread the fun!"
I fielded my flash gitz today in a 1500 pt tourney me and 7 friends had. The tourney was made up of three stages none of which we knew about until the time came to play them: 1st was annhilation, 2nd was capture objectives, and the third was a custom scenario where you had to get a special model (no shooting and complete garbage in CC statwise) attached to one of your units across the board and into your opponent's deployment zone for whatever fluffy reason you deemed appropriate (I went with I had a commisar of the IG's and was going to return him alive if they would give me some of those big blasty gunz that shot so far which I would have of course turned on them afterwards). Getting him there however didn't win you the game but instead award you 150 victory points, whereas allowing him to die gave your opponent 100 victory points. Since the rulebook states you can opt to use victory points if you so desire all of our games were played as such. Without going into details as to why I ended up getting a bye the first round and only participated in the final two scenarios.
I posted an army list almost identical to what I used today in the army lists section but to sum it up it was as follows. A warboss with meganobz in a trukk. Two units of 30 sluggas with 3 rokkits. One unit of 25 sluggas, and one unit of 25 shootas with 2 big shootas. Of course each of these units had their nob with his power klaw and bosspole. All of these with 7 flash gitz who had the shootier, more dakka, painboy, and cybork upgrades coming to a total of 275 pts.
In the capture objectives scenario I played against a skilled necron player. Not sure what to do with them at first decided to have my flash gitz duck and weave through some terrain giving them a bit of cover and used them mostly to shoot away at his squads of necron warriors. They out right killed one unit and picked apart another unit weakening them enough to allow one of my crippled squads of sluggas to charge them and clean up the last few warriors. Towards the end they contested an objective which in the end actually gave me the lead in points captured and led to me getting the win. Throughout the game he would occasionally use one of his warrior squads and once a heavy destroyer to shoot at the flash gitz but for the most part they held admirably to the fire thrown their way, only losing 3 models and passing their morale check keeping them in it. The game didn't last that long ending early on turn 5.
After the game we talked about how they did and his impressions of them and I learned some very interesting tidbits. While they did in fact NOT earn back their points number-wise as was the fear keeping people from using them they did prove useful elsewhere.
1) They did kill a full unit of 10 necron warriors. Not exactly impressive but worth noting.
2) They weakened another necron warrior unit enough to allow a depleted boyz squad a chance to charge in and still win the fight.
3) I was able to trust them enough to charge across the board and not die and to even contest an objective that did in fact win me the game.
4) And this I found most interesting of all. They were not targeted much at all, nor even considered a threat by my opponent. He said that with all the other boyz I had on the field and especially those meganobz he had little time to deal with a handful of gitz holding some shiny guns despite what they did to him, especially considering it would have taken a good show of force to destroy the unit. So I thought for a moment and decided that if I were to have ran an army like this without flash gitz I would have naturally used lootas instead. When I asked him if he would have felt the lootas a bigger threat and dealt with them with more gusto and earlier in the game he emphatically proclaimed that yes indeed he would have! So to me it seemed they were dangerous enough to cause some trouble but not so bad that they'd require an opponent to blow them off the board right away. I found this very interesting and decided to try to incorporate that knowledge into my next match.
My next match was against a very tank heavy IG in the special scenario described above. Due to the way terrain was set up the flash gitz weren't able to shoot their first turn so I ran them up behind some cover ahead of the shoota boy squad accompanying the commisar at one edge of the board. The only things capable of harming them in their position was the basilisk in the back corner, a unit a standard troops hiding in some trees on the line of his deployment zone, and a squad with a captain and some nasty 'umies with some dead killy gunz in their unit (forgive me but I don't remember exactly what they were as my knowledge of IG is small. I can tell you at one point with the aid of a couple leman russes they helped pulp my meganobz squad). At one edge of the board for pretty much the entire game my sluggas were being bombarded by the baslisk wiping more than a few boyz but managed to take out one tank he had providing cover for his transport vehicle which was attempting to drive his emissary across the board into my deployment zone. They caused the lead vehicle to wreck in an inopportune location for him forcing his transport to take the long way around and in the end he failed to achieve the objective of getting the model into my deployment zone (missing it by 1 inch! ).
Using the chaos happening at the other end of the board as a distraction I cleverly used my flash gitz to screen my shoota boyz while progressing through the pass in front of them and thus providing even more safety for the commisar. I naturally assumed he would use the units hiding in the trees to first tear up the flash gitz and then try to take out the shoota boyz but such was not the case. He reasoned that the flash gitz were very durable and thus would take some time to fully wipe out and since they were providing a 4+ cover save to an already large unit of boyz it was uneconomical to shoot them either. So he spent his energies dealing with the unit of 25 sluggas who had just tore through one unit of his troops moments ago and were now marching menacingly towards him. All of this allowed my flash gitz some free shots that chipped away at both the unit of troops and the one with the captain, all the while aiding the shoota boyz and the in tow commisar to advance towards their goal. After a turn of footsloggin' forward the 25 strong slugga squad had been shot to pieces and killed by the humans in the trees and decimated by a huge shot from the baslisk and even the aid of a leman russ. With vengeance in mind and my goal in sight I ducked my flash gitz off to the side allowing clear passage to a diminished squad of troops that they decimated with ease while charging my flash gitz at their captain. A couple flash gitz fell but with the aid of the painboy's poisoned weapon and the impressive amount of attacks such a small squad could throw out on the charge they managed to wipe out his unit except for the lone captain who was readily handled on the next turn. Finally since I was crossing into my objective he turned his baslisk and a leman russ at my shoota boyz and got just enough kills in the funneled in squad to cause them to fall back stealing my chances of at least getting a draw away from me as he had overwhelmingly destroyed the rest of my army and victory was no longer an option. On what ended up being the final turn (again a short game ending on turn 5) I took some pot shots at his baslisk's exposed side armour and then got really lucky rolling a 1 for my AP! This led to me getting an armament destroyed result instead of crew stunned and had the game gone on longer might have possibly made a difference down the line. Didn't have much influence here but it was good to see some potential scenarios play out with their random AP.
===My Final Analysis===
I was pleasantly surprised at what my flash gitz ended up doing for me. Were they killing machines? No, not really. Did they pull any miraculous game changing feats that made everyone in the room take notice and subsequently fear? Nope. And did they overcome the stigma keeping them out of most everyone's army lists and earn back the victory points spent on them. Again, a resounding no. However, with all that having been said they still really seemed to be a good addition to my army. They didn't wreak havoc as I had thought they would be meant to do but they filled a very unique role nonetheless. They were disruptive in providing cover fire and killing some necrons in the process. I trusted them enough to charge across the board in some open field and even enough to charge an enemy unit into CC in order to contest an objective that as I said before ultimately led to me winning the match. They proved durable enough to not get entirely slaughtered at the slightest hint of gunfire. They then showed a unique usefulness in being a solid screen for an important unit and would have enabled me to achieve my objective only failing through no fault of their own. They even showed good CC skills and proved they can be used for both shooting and fighting depending on what you need them to do. Finally they gave a glimpse of what could potentially occur in rendering a baslisk all but useless.
Pending some more extensive testing I'm very (pleasantly) surprised to report that I could potentially see a place for flash gitz in an army list. Admittedly, 1500 pts was perhaps a bit small but for a 1750-2000+ pt army I could definitely see someone running them. The only things I would caution you on is to not expect them to do some ridiculously good killing because it just won't happen. However, if you use a little finesse and treat them as a utility unit you might find yourself surprised at what they can do for you. The main thing that stuck out in my mind is how they aren't really feared by people which means you have a good opportunity to fly them in under the radar and potentially get a cheap victory solely based on your opponent not fearing what they can do. I'm not suggesting everyone needs to make room in their army lists to incorporate the greatest unit of all time cause they're not but I'm convinced it would be very beneficial to every ork player to give them a shot at least a couple times and then decide for yourself what you think. I may not use them in every list I make from now on but I definitely think I'll make some room for them every now and then just to shake things up and test them out some more. After all, they played an incredibly important part in helping me come in 2nd place in my first tournament! ^.^
All in all I'd say this was a very insightful orkspiriment (love that word ^.^) and hope this helped everyone out and gave a little insight.
Last edited by Zatnugg; August 1st, 2008 at 06:51.
"Orks have to be followers of Nurgle! They're green, smell bad, and just want to spread the fun!"
Nice write-up Zat! I have to say I'm surprised at the results you got, but its good to hear. I tried Gitz in one of my 1st new Ork Dex games (it was a 2 player free-for-all) and since then my friends are deathly afraid of them.
I'm in for this Orkspiriment! Though not sure when I'll be playing next, likely a few weeks to a month, but they will be in my next game and I'll report back here
Monkey's Killer Kan WiP (Updated 4/29)
an excellent start and well done to you sir! This is exactly what the Orkspiriment (god I love that word. I'm such a genius...) is all about.
So just for the record we've had footslogging Gitz face off against Necrons and IG. And although they did not single handily win the game or carry the army list they put up a good account for themselves. More importantly they did not hurt the army either or compromise victory.
However this is only one player's experiance, for the Orkspiriment to work we need more battle reports such as this. (in the format I've layed out in the future please) And from more players. So far we have myself, Zatnug, Monkeyclops and, Mynameisgrax. But as any good ork player knows, numbers matter. Join the Orkspiriment like these brave visionaries.
What are you waiting for people? Get Orkspirimentin'!
like Zat i posted my 2 teef in the other Gitz thread, i'll move it over as well
I tend to stay away from mathhammer, as it takes alota fun out of the game for me, that being said, i read into it every now and then. I for one use Flash gitz(prepare stones, fruit and other nasty objects for throwing now) for one reason, Fluff.
I "used" Badrukk and take 3 powder grots and 3 ammo runts, 8(total) strong with a painboy, oh and grax is right about the blasta upgrade, rarely useful. I think i've had 2 games maybe at most where i've said "damn if only i had blasta..."
target small squads of elites(terms, Marines, MEQs) dreads, and weak Vehicles. on a adverage to lucky turn of rolling you can pop up to 6 runts, depending on Bad's own accuracy, which can spell doom for some unlucky foe. Mathhammer it all you want, if i roll a 1 or 2 when i target a Termi squad, or a 3 on MEQs, i always pop all my runts.
I used to horde them up in ruins or equally grateful Cover.
Were they worth it? at 400 points that squad wasn't really cheap =/.
and most people will NOT see this as the same thing, but while they rarely(like ever other, other game) made their points back, they still almost always did what i wanted them to do, weither it was kill so&so, hold perty shiney objective, or draw attention off of the big dogs(i play with Manz also).
edit: never played a 5th edition rules game btw, so my next game should be fun
Would i go back and change, not use them? hell no, cause they were fun as shit, and the look on someones face when they strike gold.... mmmm priceless. However as random as they are...
Would i recommend them to people? dispite my take with them, no. They are too expensive and random for all those Mathhammer/Tornement powergaming/I cry//murder people when i lose, kind of person.
I've used them mainly for one reason, Objective Taking.
They can't do that anymore, so they might be retiring to a luxary life a nob pirate could only dream of.
How would i change the Flash Gitz to make them more "gamey"?
Well i've always wanted these to be options/rules
1: Regular Ork Boyz at 10-12 points a pop, Standard gear: Snazzgun, gitfinder(isn't that great.. maybe worth 1 point difference...) No eavy armor standard(6save)
2: Add the option of upgrading 1 or more models to Nobs at 10 points a Model, give them Regular Nob options(eavy armor, PKs, BPs, etc)
3: Keep the Painboy option of making a nob(if any) option
4: knock off around 20 points on badrukk.. or give him 2 BS, or a free PK, or something.
5: make the Snazz gun upgrades Scale-able. make it 2 points each SG for the first, 3 each second, 4 each 3rd. kills the cost some, and in the rare chance you take all 3 its only 9 points a pop instead of 15
6: make Eavy armor OPTIONAL, i for one throw them in cover... i rarely use the darn stuff
7: and last but not least, in the case where you could keep most the squad normal boyz(the cheap orks) make the squad 5-20 instead of 5-10.
Thats my 2 teef on the Flash Gitz, i've been really Busy recently, and i must admit in my free time i've been playing Fantasy more >_<, however i'll try to get a 40k game or 2 in for this thread sometime in the future.
Alright, I've played a game with them, and now I can say with confidence: FLASH GITZ ARE HORRIBLE!
There is a catch, of course. Painboyz are good, and Captain Badrukk proved very useful, changing my mind on the character. Together they were a match made in heaven. The problem was the flash gitz themselves!
I played 6 flash gitz total, one as a painboy and one as Captain Badrukk, and I included the +1 shot, +1 strength and cybork upgrade. I put the whole team in a battlewagon with a rokkit and grot riggers, making the team cost 350, and the battlewagon another 105, or 455 combined.
My mind swims with what those points could have bought me, instead of flash gitz. 30 lootas? 2 teams of 30 boyz? 3 units of trukkboyz?
Instead, I got a unit that barely did anything. The worst was a round where the flash gitz got within range of marines, rolled a 3 for their AP...and only killed a single marine as a result. 8 shots with strength 6 and AP 3 killed a single marine. There was bad rolling involved, of course, but even if it were the average scenario, only 2 marines would die, which still isn't much when you compare them to a full team of lootas or shootas, and that's when the AP roll was good for them! As a final insult, the rokkit on the battlewagon got a hit and a kill. The single rokkit matched the firepower of all the regular flash gitz combined. That was just sad.
Captain Badrukk, on the other hand, more than pulled his weight. He's still expensive, but an all but guaranteed kill a turn was nice, and the painboy made sure his 'gets hot' rule didn't get out of hand.
The only positive thing I can say for the unit as a whole is that my opponents ignored them. They didn't get shot at once. They left the battlewagon, and the wagon was shot at, but they weren't. They certainly get underestimated...but from my experience, they're probably estimating their effectiveness just fine. What they were underestimating was Badrukk.
The only use I can see for the flash gitz is as life support specifically for Captain Badrukk. Here's my new setup:
5 flash gitz= 1 as a painboy w/cybork, 3 w/ +1 shot upgrade and cybork, 1 as Captain Badrukk. Total points: 295. I wouldn't even give them a transport, since they can't move more than 6 inches and still shoot from inside. I'd rather keep them in terrain and fire at the center of the board.
I can't see anything else being effective, and honestly, killa kans still fill this niche better, and at a lower cost. Capt. Badrukk has definitely gone up in my estimation though. I just wish there was a better unit to put him with.
"Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
Thanks for participating anyway. I'm glad you used the Kaptin and had a (relativly) good experiance with him. Sorry the gitz couldn't work out for you. We've had two reports with very mixed results. With your game most of the MathHammer and TheoryHammer seems to be dead on... However the Kaptin seems to have exceeded expectations.
You never said so in your report, but did you win? Were you running Speed Freaks or footsloggers? Were you fighting vanilla marines? From what I'm getting, the flash gitz didnt' help you much in the battle.
so we've had two people play them and get some mixed results. For the orkspiriment to work we need more people. I myself have a game agianst CSM this week and I will post my results.