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  1. #1
    LO Zealot mynameisgrax's Avatar
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    Experience with kill points?

    I was wondering, how have ork players been doing with annihilation missions, and kill points? So far I've only played one annihilation game, with 11 kill points in a mixed footslogger/speed freaks list, against a Chaos Marine player with a balanced army, and 9 kill points.

    The game went really close, especially since my trukks and small units were easy prey for his larger more powerful squads. I eventually won the day, thanks to the last minute arrival of Doc Grotznik and some meganobz, but it made me think, what's a good balance?

    I only had 2 more kill points than my opponent, and it seemed like a significant difference. Is this going to be the end of trukk heavy lists? A trukk heavy list can easily have 6 units in trukks, a unit of warbuggies or deffkoptas, and a unit of nob bikers with a warboss. That's 15 kill points, and they could easily find themselves facing Marine armies that only have 7-8.

    Of course, armies with more units also have a better chance of taking or contesting objectives, so what's a good balance (assuming around 1500 point games)? Has anyone had any experiences where the number of units in their army played a significant part in their victory/loss, in 5th edition?

    "Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
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  3. #2
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    Its ironic how the Annihilation mission is bad for Orks...

    I played Annihilation 2 weeks ago, also vs CSMs at 1500 points.

    I had - Biker Boss + 7 Bikers w/ Nob; 12 Boyz in a Trukk x3, 4 Meganobz in a Trukk w/ Grotsnik; 20 Boyz in a Battlewagon = 13 Kill Points

    CMSs had - Defiler; 3 Oblits; 10 Berserkers in Rhino; 10 Berserkers on foor (maybe 2); 3 Bikes; 1 Daemon Lord/Prince Guy; 8-10 Termies = 8 or 9 Kill Points

    Had this been any other mission I would have had a huge advantage in capping objectives, but alas it was not. He beat me pretty good, by turn 4 he had already amassed 8 KPs on me (3 from 4 of my Trukks). Thus my only hope was to literally annihilate him. If the game didn't end on turn 5 I might have had a chance. My Meganobz came on in turn 2, turn 3 they took out the Defiler and turn 4 they took out the Oblits. The game ended and I had a BW with a Deffrolla and 3 MANz left. He had 5 or so Termies, a squad of 4 Berserkers and a Squad of 3 Berserkers. My BW was Deffrolling the termies and my MANz were moving in on the 1st squd of Berserkers. With some luck and a full 7 turns I "might" have had it.

    Bottom line though, my Trukks killed me as far as KPs went. I agree that loading up with lots of Trukks is going to hurt you in Annilihation missions. I'm starting to gear my speed lists to more of a mix to lower my number of KPs. I'm also thinking of adding in more BWs. Instead of 2 groups of 12 Boyz in a Trukk I can get 1 group of 20 in a BW for roughly the same points. Granted you lose 1 PK, but you gain a Deffrolla

  4. #3
    Senior Member crazyrpger's Avatar
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    I've played one annihilation game, versus Space Marines.

    I had: A KFF Big Mek, 4 30 boyz squads (2 slugga, 2 shoota), 10 lootas, 2 rokkit armed kans, a dread and a rokkit buggy. 9 kill points.

    He had: A master, 3 tac squads, a sniper scout squad, an assault squad, a terminator squad and a dread w/ las cannon. 7 kill points.

    I won handily. 5 turns. I managed to drop everything except 1 tac squad. He dropped my buggy, both kans (they were a squadron). Never touched my lootas and didn't manage to hurt hardly any of my other squads. His termies managed to heavy flamer and ass cannon one squad, killing ten before massed shoota fire and a charge killed him before he got any attacks back. He bizarrely moved his devs forward first turn to get a better firing position. He held his assault squad back too long. His dread managed to drop my 2 kans and nothing else. His scouts dropped my buggy and then died to shootas. Tacs were cake. Had the last tac down to 3 or 4 guys. Would have wiped them had we got one more turn.

    I see this as pretty atypical and not likely to happen when the new marine dex comes out. Other races also might be a little harder.
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  5. #4
    Senior Member farmergiles65's Avatar
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    Generally in Annihilation we have to wipe out the whole enemy army. Because our ork codex is highly underpowered for that mission due to the silly amount of Kill Points we have in even just a basic army. Even if you don't take many trucks (I take 3 usually) you have more than most.

    Played one against my Chaos friend last Friday. We drew but that was only because my brave sluggas took down a Chaos Lord with Terminator through sheer fluke! He had 3 wounds left, I did a wound with the klaw and 2 wounds with the choppas, I was pesimistic to the lord dying, but after my friend said "look at my two 1's", guess what came up?

    Its just that the balance is wrong. A squad of boyz in a truck is remarkably flimsy yet is worth 2 kill points and the truck is a free kill basically. Compare that to the Chaos Land Raider with a squad of Berzerkers with a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour. Now thats 3 kill points but come on how much harder is it to take down that kind of armour/close combat ability and 2+/3+ saves everywhere, compared to our truck squad.

    The objective missions are balanced nicely, but the Annhilation one needs some work.

  6. #5
    Torn ACL FTL ==Me=='s Avatar
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    One big thing to remember with Kill Points is that if you have more units it's much easier to keep them alive. If you have a weak(ened) unit, hide it behind a healthy unit for cover or take it out of sight. For Orks (and horde armies in general), one less unit in the fight isn't a big deal and we can still mob up on the enemy.

    KPs hurt transports, but it has to balance out where transported Troops are great in objective missions. You'll roll KPs 1/3 of the time, so build your list accordingly. The key is balance.

    As an example, I ran ==My== Dark Angels against bugs in Annihilation. When his gaunt units got severely weakened, they were hidden behind the fresh broods until he had a bunch of weakened squads and I was stuck in combat (powerfist nerf + Hive Tyrant = gg).
    Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com

  7. #6
    LO Zealot mynameisgrax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyrpger View Post
    I've played one annihilation game, versus Space Marines.

    I had: A KFF Big Mek, 4 30 boyz squads (2 slugga, 2 shoota), 10 lootas, 2 rokkit armed kans, a dread and a rokkit buggy. 9 kill points.

    He had: A master, 3 tac squads, a sniper scout squad, an assault squad, a terminator squad and a dread w/ las cannon. 7 kill points.

    I won handily. 5 turns. I managed to drop everything except 1 tac squad. He dropped my buggy, both kans (they were a squadron). Never touched my lootas and didn't manage to hurt hardly any of my other squads. His termies managed to heavy flamer and ass cannon one squad, killing ten before massed shoota fire and a charge killed him before he got any attacks back. He bizarrely moved his devs forward first turn to get a better firing position. He held his assault squad back too long. His dread managed to drop my 2 kans and nothing else. His scouts dropped my buggy and then died to shootas. Tacs were cake. Had the last tac down to 3 or 4 guys. Would have wiped them had we got one more turn.

    I see this as pretty atypical and not likely to happen when the new marine dex comes out. Other races also might be a little harder.

    The new Marine codex should even things out a bit. Besides everything else, they're all going to be able to switch their bolters for pistols and close combat weapons, basically whenever it suits them, like Chaos marines do now.

    I think I can see something wrong with his list, which might have hurt him. If he ran those units bare or with few upgrades, it would have been 1100-1200 points. He must have had a lot of extras, which is usually a mistake. Also, the fact he never touched the lootas may have had something to do with his annihilation. ^_^

    Congrats on the victory!


    Quote Originally Posted by farmergiles65 View Post
    Generally in Annihilation we have to wipe out the whole enemy army. Because our ork codex is highly underpowered for that mission due to the silly amount of Kill Points we have in even just a basic army. Even if you don't take many trucks (I take 3 usually) you have more than most.

    Played one against my Chaos friend last Friday. We drew but that was only because my brave sluggas took down a Chaos Lord with Terminator through sheer fluke! He had 3 wounds left, I did a wound with the klaw and 2 wounds with the choppas, I was pesimistic to the lord dying, but after my friend said "look at my two 1's", guess what came up?

    Its just that the balance is wrong. A squad of boyz in a truck is remarkably flimsy yet is worth 2 kill points and the truck is a free kill basically. Compare that to the Chaos Land Raider with a squad of Berzerkers with a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour. Now thats 3 kill points but come on how much harder is it to take down that kind of armour/close combat ability and 2+/3+ saves everywhere, compared to our truck squad.

    The objective missions are balanced nicely, but the Annhilation one needs some work.

    The argument I've heard is that trukks get the benefit of being great at capturing objectives, but I'm not so sure if this is true. They're great for getting into close combat or an objective by turn 2, which would be great if the game was 2 turns long. A 30 boy squad is just as likely to get to the objective, and thanks to 'go to the ground', can basically control or contest it forever.

    Annihilation missions seem to have killed the trukk heavy list, unless you can kill everything, like farmergiles65 said. I think speed freaks lists are going to have to include more meganobz and nob bikers to help make up the difference.

    Also, as I've mentioned before, holding trukks back in reserve seems to work well, especially in objective based missions. You're guaranteed an 18 inch run towards your opponent's side of the board, and with disembarking and running, you could squeeze that up to 24 inches. That's pretty good, especially when you consider the fact that if your trukk gets wasted on turn 1, you've got a handful of boyz sitting on the wrong side of the board.

    I'm thinking the best balance might be 2-3 units of footsloggers and 2-3 trukks. Of course, you're still going to have more kill points than the average army, but don't feel too bad. The Imperial Guard has it even worse.
    "Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
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  8. #7
    Senior Member crazyrpger's Avatar
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    Yeah, the Marine I played against had loads of upgrades. I rewrote up his list as I remembered it, and it came up to like 1400 points, so I'm missing something.

    Still, even other, better written lists of Marines can get wiped by Orks. I played a Blood Angels player down to 4 marines and one tank in 5 turns. Space wolves, I took down to 2 Preds (which he kept on a hill in the back the whole game) a tac squad (also on that hill, holding an objective) and one of their obscene Venerable Dreads in 5 turns... Why do all my games seemingly end in 5 turns now?

    I agree with the assertion that we basically have to wipe the enemy in Annihilation... Even my footslogging list usually has more (and easier to earn) Kill Points than the typical Marine list I've been facing. It is bizarre that Orks should be so bad at a mission that solely relies on killing! Such poetic justice, or sad irony, depending on how you look at it.

    Also, the fact that dedicated transports count as an extra Kill Point really hurts every army that uses excessive mechanization... Would it be too much to hope for GW to FAQ this issue to make it more fair for mechanized lists and the poor, poor Guard, who are so much worse off than we are?
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  9. #8
    Senior Member farmergiles65's Avatar
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    No one touched your Deff Dread grax? I thought you hated dreadnoughts in an Ork list anyway. And I'm surprised that the wad of heavy weapons in every marine list didn't take it down!

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