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DE able to scare Fearless opponents? - Now corrected ~ Raven ~
I was looking at the rules for wargear and noticed that these choices don't actually call for a Pinning Test.
Instead, the target takes a Leadership Test which, if they fail, pins them. What's kind of funny is that the rules for Fearless state that the unit or character automatically passes any Morale and Pinning Tests...not Leadership Tests (page 75). The 5th Edition BGB actually goes to some lengths to point out how Morale & Pinning Tests are just two specific instances of Ld testing (pages 8, 43).
- Terrorfex & Horrorfex
- Mask of the Damned
- Hell Mask
This is awesome for us Dark Kin, as we can now use our underhanded ways scare the pants off of any foe! As it should be for those who have mastered the arts of terror.
Terrorfexes and Horrofexes should now be well worth their points now that 5th has removed partials from blast marker hits. Meanwhile, make sure to note that I did not mention the Xenospasm, as it actually uses a true Pinning Test. That's probably do to the fact that it's main function is to incapacitate victims, rather than inducing pure terror.
Last edited by Ravenscraig; August 12th, 2008 at 09:32. Reason: Amendment to Thread Title
Nice catch. Something else trhat will be moaned at/removed when we finally get redone, i might even put the horrorfex back on my raiders now as it has more use now.*(not defencive now see faq).
To me it seems like borderline rules lawyering. Especially since the codex is from about a decade ago.
However, it is something that makes me want to finish up my coven list.
Although the Horrorfex/Terrorfex says they must pass a leadership test or else be "pinned" may truely sound like a Leadership test, there is no way I could face my friends with this one - I a leadership to determined if you are pinned to me is a pinning test, I'm not hiding behind 3rd edition verbage to spring this one.
Hellmask and Vex never claimed to "pin", they just either make you fail your charge or make you charge someone else.
I will say, however, that even though xenospasm does specifically say "pinning test" (unlike the others) I will still consider a horrorfex and terrorfex a "pinning" weapon. If an enemy squad is immune to pinning and my weapon causes "pinning" then the squad is still immune to it.
"On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]
That's a valid argument KwiKwag. However, it's the current Fearless rules which make this real to me. It's very clear from the wording of it that GW intended to differentiate between taking formal Pinning Tests & Morale Checks versus other forms of leadership tests, regardless of the effects they incur.
Thus, Fearless does not actually make a unit immune to pinning, only tests labeled as those specified in the USR.
It's seems I just restated my facts there. My apologies, that wasn't very cool of me. Let's approach the issue from a different point of view. When determining whether a ruling is valid, I think there are three things we should be looking for:
1. Going by RaW, is there a clearly defined decision? While we do have to look at specific wordings and jump between different sources, there is no denying that the rules come to only one conclusion.
2. Does the ruling help to foster a more entertaining game while being fair to other players? Well, it's not going to break the game since we're talking about Ld tests here. Even with modifiers, most units will have a fair chance of passing. At the same time, it's giving the Dark Eldar a much needed alternate or complementary strategy which is more viable than it was before.
3. Does this interpretation make sense regarding the fluff of the game? While it may seem odd that fearless warriors & creatures would be able to be scared at face value, we should really consider how that rule would represent real situations. When we start talking about the mental fortitude of Space Marines and other humans, one thing that is clear when looking at the history of the 40K universe is that even the mightiest of faiths can be overcome if persuaded in the right ways. Fearless creatures big & small still are governed largely by their instincts, and instincts typically include an inate fear of that which is dangerous. If you are able to somehow tap into those instincts, it could override other factors that would normally make them truely fearless (such as synapse or being a huge monster). For a Greater Daemon, it's fear might be of the purest holy judgement. For a Hive Tyrant, it might the illusion of the Hive Mind being eradicated. As for Orks, it might be the fear of being seen as cowardly and useless which is buried deep within. These are the kinds of things which Terrorfexes & the Mask of the Damned would be popping into the minds of victims. The Hell Mask simply creates a mysterious aura of dread with no visions mentioned, which explains why it can be overcome on a roll of 6. Finally, the Vexantrope makes the wearer look like someone the victim would not dare attack, so there isn't even any fear involved, and it shouldn't be affected by the Fearless rule.
Sorry about the length of that last one. It does seem though, that all the requirements of a game rule have been met. I don't think anyone should feel unjustified in bringing this into future games.
For once i'm with Kwi on this one.
As with a few of our more dodgy rulings, that while correct i'll never play because they are just too "wrong" for me to.
Personally this is going to go in the Grotesques can make fearless units run away bin because while correct and really pretty fluffy (and also the way that I hope they implement it in the next 'dex) it is just plain old wrong.
Love it though, keep it up!
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Wondering about the horrorfex and terrorfex, but have seen the light about the hell mask. Sold me there,
*rep because now my Archon is forever changed lol*
The Terrorfex still isn't a great choice in most situations since the model that has it is most likely wanting to assault the unit within range. The possibility of them running isn't helpful there. It would be useful in a squad only equipped for shooting, although not going into close combat with your Dark Eldar is a gamble unto itself with their fragility to shooting being well documented. Cover helps a little in 5th, but unless there's some good fortifications to use, that's not a big help.
OTOH, we can now justify taking a Horrorfex as it will be worth 5 points and skipping a round of DL or Dissie fire.
Hell Masks are worth 5 points. The more characters you can find points to use it on, the better. Those Agonisers will generally stick around longer if you do.
Mask of the Damned is still a little pricey unless you know you;re fighting low-leadership opponents.
Vexantrope doesn't translate well to 5th edition close combat. If I were going to use it, I would probably ditch the old 2" support attack rule and allow the affected model(s) to attack normally against another enemy model if a friendly model was in base contact to one within 2". It would be useful if the wearer was the only model assaulting, but we don't want to do that. Otherwise, it's a more expensive version of the Hell Mask that doesn't allow the roll for 6s. Good, but not worth the extra 5 points.
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