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hi, i have a Ulthwe themed army and at the moment i have 2 vypers with SL as my fast attack. i was wondering if you think i should swap the Vypers out for 5 warp spiders or something else.
This is what my list looks like at the moment:
16 storm guardians
14 guardians w/warlock
14 guardians w/warlock
and please dont limit your suggestions to Fast attack if you think i need something else, please say.
Thx in advance.
i dunno, man, seems like a pretty all-around decent list to me. 4 troops, 2 fa, 2 heavy, 2 hq. no elites tho. u could gain from adding in some banshees, scorps or fire dragons. i would say, if you want, you could take a 5-10 man warp spider unit on top of the 2 vyps. warp spiders are very fast, and pretty tough, esp seeings as they have a s6 wpn. u can do a lot of trickery with them as well. diving in and out of cover to shoot, etc... hope this helps a little.
Warp Spiders are pretty wicked and are always useful due to their speed and weapon. Scorpions will also be useful due to their ability to outflank and I would think that they could compliment your force well.
"They say the Darkness consumes you. They don't say what happens after It's done."
Alright, I'm assuming this is for a 1500 point list, since with minimized point costs you're coming in at 1212. This is assuming Shuriken Cannons for anyone requiring a heavy weapon choice, and no psychic powers or weapons otherwise. And now let's go down your list.Originally Posted by That guy
Avatar + Eldrad
This combination is pretty nasty and will wreck anything it runs into in close combat. Remember that Guide does not let you re-roll failed assault hits, only shooting. Doom is also pretty wasted on whatever these two are attacking since they will both be wounding on 2's and have power weapons. That's not to say you can't Doom other things your army might be taking care of, though. Also remember that if you use one of Eldrad's shooting powers (Mind War, Eldritch Storm) you don't get to Run with them.
16 Storm Guardians
Why 16? You happened to buy two $30 boxes of them so you figured you should field all of them? Pretty unnecessary since 16 doesn't let you take any more Flamers, which is the sole reason to take Storm Guardians. I know they come with a close-combat weapon and a pistol, but the added attacks are made for a very specific thing: wiping up what few things are left after flamers. They're still Guardians: WS3, S3, T3, 5+ save.
To me, the proper use of these guys is as follows:
Wave Serpent- TL Bright Lance, Spirit Stones
10 Storm Guardians, 2 Flamers
If you are flaming MEq, be sure to apply Doom before torching them, you want as few of them left over as possible before you assault to finish them off. Since you're only S3, the Doom continues to be of service to rack up re-rolling those 5's to wound.
14 guardians w/warlock
Again, why 14? Why a Warlock? Yes, you can take them, but you shouldn't. Conceal is worthless with the abundance of 4+ cover saves available. Enhance, you won't be getting into combat with these guys. Destructor, nobody is going to run all the way across the board to get at Defender Guardians. Embolden, all units within 12" of the Avatar are Fearless anyways. Save the points, put them elsewhere.
What weapon platform are you giving these guys? Guide helps them tremendously, so make good use of Eldrad when he has nothing better to cast spells on. I'd personally suggest Scatter Laser since S6 shots almost always wound on 2's and you get four shots with them. Missle Launchers aren't a bad idea, though, since you can both tank hunt and troop hunt with the krak vs. blast, and pinning checks are always nice.
You spent $75 on them and want to use them? Otherwise, they are very, very out of place in this list. 110 points, 120 if you take a Cannon like you should, that don't really fit in anywhere in this list. They fit best with Mech Eldar, the rest of your army is walking. Differences in army composition give your opponent something to focus fire on. You should either increase their number to 6 so you can take two cannons and assist the other Guardians with 36" shooting that you can later long-distance claim objectives, or drop them entirely.
These guys are either great or terrible, and it all depends on what your opponent is doing. Vypers can be amazingly annoying, especially if you're smart with them. Give them both Missle Launchers so you can harass tanks and infantry alike from a distance that will pretty much guarantee cover saves for you and keep you completely out of range of most weaponry outside of very dedicated anti-tank. Then, as the game nears its end, launch them forward to contest objectives, denying your opponent his points. This works even better if you give them Star Engines, but these two upgrades (Star Engines, Missle Launcher) put them at 80 points a model, making them a bit on the pricey side of you get overeager with them and put them out in firing range. Remember, Vypers are for point denial. If you can put them in cover to deny any line of sight that can be drawn to them, do it. At only BS3, it's not worth putting them at risk just to shoot something that may or may not die. However, jetting 36" across the board at the bottom of the 6th to cut off two of your opponent's objective points is priceless.
At this point, you offered the alternative of Warp Spiders. I'm never a fan of a unit that might kill itself by moving. Even further, these guys are very expensive points-wise: 5 spiders and 1 exarch, dual spinners puts these guys at 149, just under my two Vypers. They have to get within 12" to shoot at something, which means assault range unless you try to warp away, potentially killing a 22 point model. They are often seen as a good assault unit because of their WS5, I5, and Exarch power weapons available, but they're still S3, T3, 1 wound a piece with Marine armor, far from invulnerable. If you take them, don't ever assault with them. Don't take them, though, unless you just love the model more than you love winning.
I'm not sure what you're intending with this guy. My best guess would be to have him join up with Eldrad and the Avatar, adding more high-strength power weapon hits to their team. Keep in mind, though, that if this is what you're intending, he can't shoot and run. For this situation, dual flamers, a wraithsword, and a Scatter Laser might be your best bet. Flame and Laser whatever you're about to assault whenever you get in range, or you can change this to a Bright Lance to work in tandem with the Avatar's Melta weapon, shoot both the melta and the lance and you should have a dead tank that didn't require you to walk over to it. Heck, shoot an Eldritch Storm on the tank first to spin it and hit back armor since Eldrad's there and would like to join the fun. Though, he should generally have other things to dedicate spell usage to.
I want you to repeat this mantra for me: Three prisms, or no prisms. Those are your options. Anyone will take one look at what a prism cannon can do and will make sure that if they can shoot at it, they will. They don't even have to kill it, a roll of 1, 2, or 3 on the chart shuts you down for either the turn or the game (in the case of a three). With only one on the field, that makes you very open to a single lascannon or railgun shot shutting it down for at least a turn. The ability to link is also what makes these things so good. Dropping a S6 AP3 twin-linked large blast template on cocky Marines players teaches them to change tactics very quickly. At S9 AP2 for the small blast they can wipe a squad of cocky terminators, too. 4+ cover, 5+ invul, both are much better than their 2+ armor any day. Furthermore, Prisms are Eldar's best way of dealing with Monoliths. Your bright lances don't get their special ability, so they are basically 36" missles. Now, take two Prism Cannons, link them and shoot a single S10 AP1 shot, meaning a 1/3 chance to penetrate, 1/6 chance to glance, and either way the AP1 means you go up one on the damage chart, you can still blow it up with a 6 on a glancing hit or a 4 on a penetration.
Prism Cannons also have a 60" range. Only a Railgun outdoes this, and if you link them they have unlimited range. You can pretty much be anywhere on the board and you can nuke what you can see. Stay out of range of everything. It's better to give your opponent a cover save against your blasts than it is for you not to have a cover save. That is, unless you're about to wipe out whatever would be able to shoot at you if you moved out of cover to shoot at them.
So, um... yeah. Long story short, I'd stick to the two Vypers.
Last edited by Kirbinator; August 31st, 2008 at 07:26.
I'm sorry, in all of that wall of text I didn't offer anything outside of what you had listed. I think you need to drop those Storm Guardians and Jetbike Guardians and switch to Dire Avengers. They make much better footmen and will benefit from the Fearlessness of the Avatar and Eldrad's spells much more.Originally Posted by That guy
For example, take two squads of Dire Avengers, each 10 models including an Exarch. Give the Exarch a dire sword and pistol, you can take shimmer shield for when you're facing lots of rending or power weapons. Also give him Blade Storm. Now, the guys walk up to something 18" away, add in Eldrad's Guide and Doom. If you have both units within range of whatever you're shooting when you do this, you can/should unleash Bladestorm, otherwise save if for just before you charge. Get into assault range with someone, Fortune/Guide the Avengers and Doom the opponent. Bladestorm for 30 shots that re-roll misses and wounds, then charge. You're only S3, but you're I5, 2 attacks a piece that re-roll wounds, 4 for the Exarch at I6, and he has a force weapon. You've just successfully removed almost anything that was sitting on that objective in front of you.
At this point the modified list would look something like this:
2x 10 Dire Avengers as listed above
2x 10 Defender Guardians with Missle Launcher platform
2x Vyper with Star Engines and Missile Launcher
3x Fire Prism
That leaves you 52 points to play with as you see fit. For reference, that could easily be a third Vyper, but with a shuriken cannon and no star engines. Potential 24" movement and 36" shooting harassment isn't bad for 50 points, and that's another unit to contest things with.
I just re-read your post and you mentioned being Ulthwé themed, so these Dire Avengers probably aren't your style. There again, neither is an Avatar nor warp spiders depending on how serious you are about your theme. Those Storm Guardians really are much better off as mobile torches, though, and a Mech Eldar list would be a fair bit different than the foot-based one you are running.
Sticking to the Ulthwé theme, however, you could simply call the Dire Avengers the Black Guardians and paint them appropriately. Ulthwé did have the Black Guardians as their elite, battle-hardened force, much like the Dire Avengers of other craftworlds. They didn't specifically follow the Warrior's Path, they're just veterans. Furthermore, if you had four more Storm Guardians I can't imagine many players telling you that you cannot use them as Black Guardians with the 'Counts As Dire Avengers' bit, so long as you had a way to distinguish the Exarchs.
Last edited by Kirbinator; August 31st, 2008 at 07:38.
As far as Ulthwe goes, you really should just stick with Vypers or something; they don't tend to go very heavy on Aspect Warriors in general, and it seems to me like Dark Reapers are the only Aspect that you'd see (fluffwise) often enough to really toss them into the list.
However, I'm a gigantic fan of Warp Spiders; they have very solid firepower at a 24" effective range, the potential to JSJ (at the risk of killing a model, sure, but it doesn't happen that often; maybe once or twice per game in my experience, JSJing every turn). When using them, they have been a very solid unit; when playing against them, they've absolutely wreaked havoc on my forces, destroying tanks from rear armour, demolishing units, and their 3+ saves for some reason would never fail (when my friend rolled them, heh). So if you were looking at sliding out of your theme, I'd recommend grabbing a squad; five is too small though, I tend to recommend 8-10 in a squad.
i've successfully made up a list that includes warp spiders, i managed to get 8 in without taking anything that i really wanted in my list. i havn't got room for an exarch unless i take out one of the spiders. Are the exarchs worth the points? if i did get one what do you guys suggest i give him?(wargear wise). i'm not really that fussed about keeping my army to the theme that much, i only want more guardian squads than Aspect ones. thanks for all the help so far!
I would drop the Jetbikes for a 2nd Fire prism. Now at least u have a back up if one is taken out, and u can still combine for the uber str 10 ap 1 blast.
Shrink the two gaurdian squads to 12 each and bolster the storm guardians to 20. This will give eldrad a bigger body of bodies to shield him. The avataar's fearless aura will be more effective and you'll have a larger mass of attacks. Eldrald, the avatar and the wraithlord will kill the big and armored stuff, while your flamers and gaurdians will kill the horde.
Btw, in terms of fluff, the codex says eldrald is dead. His mind eternally fighting some demon in Abbadon's main ship or something. I guess that means whenever he's feilded it's assumed it's a battle fought at a point in time before this?
I like the warp spider exarch with dual spinners personally, it's like paying 17 points for another bs5 warp spider.
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left" Bertrand Russell
We bring only death, and leave only carrion. It is a message even a Human can understand.