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With longer barrels they'll have longer range and then maybe i won't hate them as much. How many times a game do your guardians ever get to fire their shuricats? Perhaps i've only had bad luck but it seems they use them once before the enemy charges me or i charge him to prevent being charged. Against the basic guns of the other races let us compare.
Now Shootas may have one less ap but really i'd much rather have them any day. and the ork's carrying them cost 2 points less then our guardians (with 2 base attacks and toughness 4). Sure you may argue they have to fight against their low BS but they'll out number the guardians and can open fire from father out. I mean, our guardians may as well carry 18th century muzzle loading muskets. it's not like we use them enough to warrent reloading! If Storm Guardians could take a heavy weapon it'd be no contest for me. at least then when it's time to charge i have something to utilize. You know what guardian squads are? they're 10 wound Scatter Lasers that hold objectives.
- Bolters have 24" range and rapid fire, giving them effectively double our range and still the same amount of fire power inside 12 inches.
- Lasguns are probably the weakest having one less strength but still able to rapid fire at 12" and shoot 24".
- Shootas are 18" assault 2 str 4. essentially better shurikats.
- I'm not going to even start with plasma rifles, it's just no comparison.
- Shuricats do have the advantage of being assault against the bolters and lasguns. That means we can fire and assault. A big advantage i agree but really, gaurdians are not CC power houses. Given that they have to take a heavy weapon really it'd be better to stand at 12" and fire, except that the enemy unit will charge you to stop this.
It just really bothers me to think im' playing a race that is supposed to have superior technology speed and tactics. The codex itself mocks the bolter for it's primitiveness, yet it out ranges our esteemed shuricat. You guys who have played ulthwe armies or like to feild lots of guardians please tell me stories of how your shuricat fire owns. Tell me you dance around your foe just out of his reach flinging a blizzard of microthin disks of death... i want to believe.
All true, but remember the bolter is only 24" if they stand and fire. As soon as they are on the move it's back to 12" again.
I think it would be better to turn the shuri-cat to a rapid fire weapon so at least the guardians can stay put and shoot longer range.
Personally I never take guardians for this reason - they just aren't worth painting up. I'd rather have DireAvengers and less of them.
A valid point i must say, altough when you think about, giving guardians a longer range will suddenly turn them into a cheap death squad (i'm not talking about the blood angels here either)..... I think this is the very reason that DA's were given that extra range otherwise they'd just be a classy guardian. Don't get me wrong i would never say no to some extra range on my shuri's (especialy when you see what the TAU have), but when you look at the big picture........ as daziel said, even a marine can't move and shoot more than 12".
The trick is to take a squad of Harlequins........ only kidding.
Try to keep in mind that due to the heavy weapons being on their platforms, they count as Assault weaponry, thus you can move and fire. So in actuality, your Guardians' Shuriken Catapults have an effective range of 18", which isn't bad for a 2-shot weapon that you can assault with after, or what have you.
Their gun isn't 18" though. to utilize it so leaves u in charge range from your target unit. Plus you have to leave cover to get that as well. Don't get me wrong it's hot we can turn our heavy weapons into assault weapons when they're on those platforms. But its not even worth it when u can take a much more mobile vyper for equal to or less then the points of the guard squad.
Even if a marine can't move and shoot more then 12" an ork can, for half the price no less. Shootas > Shuriken Catapults. Really that is messed up, orks have the capability to make a gun better then eldar? And why not make guardians a nice death squad. Orks are and they can assault. Our tech is touted to turn even our artisans into warriors but i don't see it. No, guardians are nothing more then cannon fodder. They stand there holding some objective inside yoru deployment zone firing a few pot shots off from a scatter laser. No wonder our race is dying. *ranting into further tangets...* why not give me some army of psychically controlled gun toting robotic juggernauts and spare the eldar prolitariate (sp) the indencency of dying.
So basically you want to change the Guardian to basically be more powerful? Are you suggesting a price increase as well? The purpose of the Guardian squad is to get a Troop choice on the board, which is cheap, reasonably reliable when combined with a Conceal Warlock (Singing Spear helps here too), and that packs a bit of a punch with the heavy weapon. You'll pay no more than 130 points for this squad - ten Guardians, a Warlock, and a Scatter Laser. That's a pretty reliable squad with decent firepower and that can capture objectives. Sure, Shootas > Shuriken Catapults, but you can't look at it that way, because Shootas != Catapults, and Orks != Eldar. Different armies, different rules, different balances.
If you want to look at it that way, Imperial players would say "hey, Tau get Railguns that shoot further than our guns with higher S and lower AP, we should get that too!" That's a no.
I don't see the problem, personally.
I'm glad you defend them nemesis because frankly i want to lose this point of view. I understand that different armies have different tacts and strengths. I just feel that the shuriken catapult is a nearly obsolete weapon when in the hands of a gaurdian. I want a cheap troops choice that can actually fire it's weapon as one would think of when u have a mass of rifles/bolters/lasguns/shootas. IG aren't much for melee but to counter they can at least shoot 24 while still carrying heavy weapons and they're cheaper then the guardians. Let me rephrase it perhaps. What strengths do the guardians have over similar troops choices to warrent their default weapons lack of effectiveness. I look at other basic troop choices and see them use their weapons, i just want to use mine.
And no i don't want to play a different army, i like eldar and need a venue to vent some of my frustration.
Im gonna have to say that guardian defenders are garbage in terms of doing anything offensively. They have one (1) heavy weapon shot a turn at bs3. Defensively, they are good at sititng on an objective and soaking up fire until they die. People say oh well they can conceal! I say why pay 40 points to defend a shitty squad. There are much much better troop choices, namely avengers and jetbikes.
In reply to Lost Nemesis, I wholeheartedly agree that each list is balanced in terms of having a variety of unit choices, and that each list has their better and worse units. However, in respect to each other, the different armies are not equal. I think that badxample was just trying to say that in comparison to other armies, what is supposed to be our basic "eldaresque" troop choice, guardians, sucks.
The Hand that guides.
Ok, i think i can lend a hand here..... Sure after firing their weapons guardians are left open to assault. Yep, the range is pretty short and i suppose as other races have much longer basics so should the Eldar. You know what to do...... Take storm guardians! Shove a warlock in there with conceal and enhance. You now have a basic low costing troop with a 5+ cover save who can assault with W4 and I5. Sure, they now have short ranged pistols, but you'd think twice charging a 20 man squad of these. Even a marine would attack second to these poets and builders! Oh, did i mention that they have 3 attacks on the charge as well?
20 Storm G's + a Warlock and powers is still short of 200 points. I like those odds.
"Shove a warlock in there with conceal and enhance..."
Unfortunately, that is illegal. A Warlock may only have 1 warlock power
When I was your age Pluto was a planet and Wraithlords had D-cannons! Ah, the good old days!