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I had a long thought during a boring lesson of science about the quality of air. I thought about the points cost of deffkoptas. Yes they are alright at busting tanks. Yes deffkoptas won me £30 worth of books at the black reach release day, but for the points, dude? 45 each with no upgrades apart from the twin linked rokkits is way out of this world. I would rather take 10 Nobz with big choppas for 250 points that 5 deffkoptas for 225. The deffkoptas are however fast at getting behind dreadnoughts etc.
Come on people, be honest, they are pretty shabby?
I suppose they are better than big guns though, but big guns hit on 4's, but the deffkopta gets a re roll, hmm... I'd rather take deffkoptas than big gunz, but nobz to deffkoptas. Also with the nobz you got to think about close combat (their best). They always auto hit if the tank is stationary, and on the rear armour, most likely bieng 10. Ok 4 attacks each on the charge (no +1 for extra cc weapon because of big choppa) meaning 40 strength 7 attacks on rear armour. Add a warboss to the unit and get 5 strength 10 attacks on that aswell, guarunteeting 5 penatrating hits, with probably another 20 penatrating, and 5 or so glancing. Against 1 tank compared to deffkoptas, I think thats pretty awsome.
So, basically, get rid off your deffkopters, and swap them out for nobz and a trukk, you never know, you might take out 5 or 6 tanks in a game with 2 squads. My record for tank killing in a 5 turn game was 3 tanks, but that was no trukk and only 1 squad.
Right, I'll post pics of the piggies tomorow, as I promised. Just to let you know the piggies are my Ork nobz that have black orc helmets, and look like piggies, and also the warboss, night all
Red ones goes faster - it's true :)Ork Freebooter Crusaders!3/0/1
Apples to oranges mate. Nobs are for choppin', Koptaz are for outflanking and tank-busting.
Nobs are not exactly resilient unless you trick them out considerably, and they still suffer from overkill (wiping out an enemy and being exposed to enemy fire next turn).
Koptaz are cheap, speedy, can outflank, and with twin-linked rokkits they can do some damage.
Meganobs or Biker Nobs > normal Nobs anyway.
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My 3 koptas wot outflanked on the wrong side of the board, then turbo-boosted for two turns straight to get into combat, and ended up contesting my oppoent's control point long enough for me to secure a tie beg to differ. ^^
==Me== - you said that deffkopters are cheap? no no no no, 45 points per model with twin linked rokkits is wayyyy too much. 6 Deffkopters or 10 nobz with a painboy? ooohh and big choppers, I think I'd choose the nobz.
Red ones goes faster - it's true :)Ork Freebooter Crusaders!3/0/1
Yes, but 45 points per model with twin-linked rokkits, turbo-boosters, outflank, and five toughness is a pretty good deal. They're damn useful if you use them properly.
I plan fitting mines with twin linked big shootas instead of rokkits for 2 of the 3. I feel like it still can kill tanks in the backside at S5, and when facing infantry, they fare a lot better than 3 rokkit. What do you think ?
Also, I will fit one of them with a bigboom (is that the name, I don'T have my codex close. it 's da bomb ya fit ander da kopta and ya drop on da fella hummies when you flyby). Is it good ?
CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7
So two units of 3 Koptaz with twin-linked rokkits, turbo-boosters, outflank, and five toughness... to me that seems better than one unit of 10 nobz.
But then again, as someone has mentioned, both units seem to be for different things, so it boils down to what you want to try and do with each unit really.
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I'm a big math hammer player, I've crunched the numbers and found there are only two appropriate ways to play deffkoptas and still be cost efficient: 5 deffkoptas with big shootas, or 1 deffkopta with a big shoota. That's it.
That being said, I think the unit definitely has merit, for several reasons:
1. They're very fast (great for contesting objectives at the last moment).
2. They can outflank (I'd do this every game when using them).
3. They're a fast attack choice.
The third point may not seem like an advantage, but when you start playing larger games, at around 1750-2500 points, you begin to run out of slots. Comparing deffkoptas to elite and troop choices doesn't really make sense at that point level, because by that point all your troop and elite slots are filled, and you still have 150-750 points left to work with.
If you compare them to lootas or kommandos, it's no contest, go with the lootas or kommandos. If you compare them to nobz, you have to take the extreme difference in cost into consideration. You can't field an effective unit of nobz for 175 points. If you compare them to trukks, take into account that each trukk is including 2 kill points instead of 1. In many armies it doesn't matter, but in trukk lists, you begin to choke on kill points rather quickly.
The only things that's fair to compare the deffkoptas to is other fast attack choices: warbuggies, warbikes and stormboyz.
I love rokkit buggies, and at 35 points each, they're far more effective than 55 point rokkit koptas. Buggies also count as vehicles, which makes them far more resilient than deffkoptas, who panic, suffer instant death, and lose their save against AP 4 weapons. The main advantages of the deffkoptas are that they can put out a lot more big shoota shots than a unit of 3 warbuggies with big shootas, and can also outflank.
I'm not a fan of warbikes, but I'll admit, they're better against armor than deffkoptas are, and far less likely to panic, as long as they have a nob, powerklaw and bosspole. The downside of bikes is that they're much easier to kill before they get into range, since they can't outflank, only have 1 wound each, and have a measly 18in range on their guns.
Stormboyz are a little questionable for their cost. I think you're better off spending the points on nobz in most lists, as nobz can claim objectives, as long as there's a warboss in the army. I admit, Stormboyz are incredibly fast, but all they're really good for is tying up the enemy. You can't really compare them to deffkoptas. They're a troop equivalent, not a shooty anti-armor unit.
Deffkoptas can definitely work, but I'd never use 2-4 in a unit. Only one casualty will likely send you running. 5 will have staying power, and 1 will be more expendable (although it's usually not a good idea to load up armies with too many single model units, because of annihilation missions). Also, don't give them buzzsaws (they aren't good enough in close combat to warrant them), big bombs (horribly overpriced) or kustom mega blastas (not twin linked? No thanks). I wouldn't even give them rokkits. When shooting against back armor, the big shootas are about as good, and far cheaper.
The final verdict: I'd take lootas, kommandos, rokkit buggies and more troops before I added deffkoptas into the list, but in higher point games they certainly aren't bad. I'd use them before I used regular warbikes, stormboyz, or warbuggies with big shootas, mainly because the deffkoptas can outflank. Remember, with big shootas it doesn't really matter which side you come out on. You'll be in range of all the back armor you could ever want either way. ^_^
Last edited by mynameisgrax; September 10th, 2008 at 21:19. Reason: forgot one thing
"Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
I know that I'm going to be going with SpeedFreaks at 2,500pts. I'm taking the crazy biker-mek character, to get Fast Attack bikers into my Troops choice, and also a Bikerboss to get some Meganobz in a truk as core. I'm fielding Defkoptas in fast attack, as single model units. Why?
Turbo-boost will keep them alive, and they're my only rokkits choice in the whole army. With three of them, they should be able to come at the foe in a wave, and they'll draw-in/soak-up fire while simultaneously threatening tanks with their rokkits. If I had a unit of them flying together, I'd save the points on the Rokkits, but 1 rokkit shot should be able to scare a tank, and I'd rather be able to spread the love.
With three units of biker nobz, and a core of Meganobz, two units of bikers, and 2 units of boyz in trukks, the objectives should be falling into my hands pretty quickly.
I think people are playing koptas mostly because there's a lot of them around and don't want them go to waste/wanna try em out/etc.
I'm doing what CaptainSarathai is doing, filling my Fast Attack slots with single koptas. They're pretty flexible with outflank and turboboost, although they're on the expensive side. And if my opponent decides to focus fire on them, there's a good chance that they'll pay themselves by soaking fire out of something else.