Welcome to Librarium Online!
I've been having major issues dealing with a 30 Immortal/25 Warrior/1 Monolith/1 Lord list and to plague marine/Obliterator heavy lists(all the Chaos I've been fighting really like to field at least 2 squads of Plague Marines and multiple Oblits). I live in a warhammer-heavy household...4 players total and I've probably played around 3 games/week since the new edition came out.
Here is the current list that continues to fail against these armies:
1x Farseer w/Jetbike/Guide/Doom
6x guardian jetbikes(2 shur cannons)
6x guardian jetbikes(2 shur cannons)
6x guardian jetbikes(2 shur cannons)
10x Wraithguard w/ Warlock+conceal
1x Wave serpent w/ TL ML, 5 Wraithguard+Warlock w/Destructor
2x WarWalker w/ ML
1x Falcon w/ BL and NOTHING inside
2x Dark Reapers + 1 Exarch w/ Tempest Launcher, Crack/Fast shot
This army has had some success, as it is the most "beefy" eldar army I have ever played. Bikes all have 4T, 3+ saves and the wraithguards are quite resistant. The bikes normally focus on getting my 6 STR6 shots and ducking back into cover while trying to remain alive until the end of the game so they can contest/claim objectives. I'll say that the army certainly stays on the table longer than previous armies I have constructed and it gives me a lot of chances to force a draw when playing w/ objectives. Part of its construction has to do with the changes to objectives and the fact that the bikes can decide it wants to claim an objective on the other side of the board and make it there quickly. I also like the fact that the Wraithguard squad counts as troops. I've forced a few draws against Chaos but it feels like my only choice is to "try to get a draw" in many games...and I hate it! I have been able to record victories against Tyranids. My recent games are making me wonder if the bikes are worth it. The 6 S6 shots from the bikes never seem to live up to my expectations.
My observations so far have shown that my most effective unit in taking out Immortals/Plague Marines seems to be the Dark Reaper Exarch w/ a Tempest Launcher(who always hides out of site so he can safely drop his tiny plates). The way the new barrage rules work can really make for some messy turns when you can manage to place the initial blast marker in a good spot.
I'm not sure how much I like the War Walkers with MLs. I used to use scatter lasers and I'm wondering which one is better overall. It seems close. The MLs are nice against plague marines, but it is still only 4 BS3 shots. They don't seem that great against Immortals, although nothing else looks much better. Maybe they should be removed...so many games they are killed early or end up shooting most of the game but never doing a ton of damage.
The wraithguards are a unit I just started using in the last month and I must admit that it feels good to have such a "tough" unit but it is very frustrating to have a huge and expensive squad drop to particle whip/plasma plates. It seems like most of their utility comes from forcing your opponent to unload their entire army into them(and not into other units) and when that happens I usually have success(as the rest of my army is relatively untouched). I just feel so crippled when my opponent kills most of them early on with a single template weapon. Although I'm not sure how to prevent that, it seems like that is an issue with any "tough and expensive" unit. I'm also wondering if maybe the wave serpent should simply have some troops inside or even be removed completely. 5 Wraithcannon shots is still just 5 shots and can never put a big dent in anything.
I'm not sure how much I like the falcon. With the changes to vehicles, it doesn't quite have the same mobility that it used to. I also used to always have Harlequins inside and that at least forced the Falcon to be a threat(to draw some fire). The more I play, the more my opponents ignore the Falcon, which IMO reduces its value. When my opponent is unloading into my Falcon, they aren't unloading into other squads and the holo-field keeps me smiling while my opponent continues to pour shots into it.
I'm considering trying Fire Prisms as they would seem to fit the role nicely. I'm just not quite sure where I need to start. I just feel like both the Necron and Chaos lists I have been facing have both superior gunfire and superior durability.
I hope I haven't rambled too much! I'm really just looking for any kinds of ideas or advice on how to reshape or revamp the list. I've been tuning this army since the new edition and was pretty excited for it after the first few games, but I feel like I need to be able to better deal with all the Immortals/Plague Marines/Oblits if it is to remain competitive.
Thanks for reading
against monoliths use hawks, its about one of the few things they excel at, plus exarch and intercept to hurt the monolith's skimmer ability. Next you want starcannons as these are ap2 but str 6 and hurt immortals and plague marines alike (FNP doesnt get a save from plasma based weapons anymore) a fire prism would be good but try 2 instead. they have a str 7 ap 3 large blast that twin links when linked together. Thats a squad per turn plus they are skimmers too.
apart from that just pour as many shots as you can into the enemy e.g. warp spiders.
the more saves they have to make then the more they will fail.
Also try to hit one thing at a time without spreading fire as necrons and WBB rolls are horrific if there is just one model left out of the unit (gives them some thing to home on)
I would suggest dropping the falcon or walkers and some wraithguard ( atleast the small squad in the serpent or the large squad of 10 ) and pick up more reapers. Two squads of 5 will really put the hurt on tougher units.
I would love to use a large 10man squad of wraithguard as a troop choice as they would be awesome for holding an objective but they cost so many points ( and $$$ )!
I think you have two many points in wraithguard or if your gonna go that route your farseer needs fortune. Fortune on the wraithguard unit with the conceal will make sure they get where they need to go. Even in the new rules though I think the wraithguard are slow. I love the models and its great to have that tought of unit but if they are not shooting then they are getting into assualt and those hidden powerfists will take them out quickly. The jetbike squads are cool but they will get shot up all to hell in no time to be honest. I personnaly beleive Eldar need numbers alot of times to fight these battles of attrition. I have found that my banshees tend to do well against the plague marines. It may take them a turn or two but they get the units wiped out. Also pathfinders will make short work of plague marines or destroyers. Also the autarch on a jetbike with shining spears have a very good chance to take out a 10 man unit of plague marines.
Most armies will always have superior durability but you got to use the speed you have to make swift attacks, hit haard, keep them reeling to try and deal with you.
<a href="http://www.liquidgeneration.com" target="_blank"><img
Fire Prisms are great against necrons that like to use veil of darkness (and really necrons in general, negating wbb and saves against all "necron" units, except wraiths, either when using combined fire small blast or the small blast). No matter where they land the fire prism will probably be in range and the s9 ap2/s10 ap1 small blast template combined with the new auto partials rule nigh guarantees the entire squad wiped out (unless you massively whiff your to 2+ wound rolls).
I personally think harlies aren't a bad choice either, if you can get them into combat, you will probably break them and run them down because of their horrible initiative.
Against Chaos again Fire Prisms reign supreme, instant killing plague marines with ease twin prisms can drop a fnp negating large blast that wounds on 3's or 2 fnp negating small blasts that wound on twos. Again, Harlies do well with their rending attacks and doom support coupled with their furious charge.
A thing of note in this situation is that both players are investing a huge number of points into relatively small squads (10 guys is nothing compared to mobs of 30 boys). This has to severly limit their other options and im sure there is something that their lists cant do well that you can exploit, probably speed.
Last edited by Amishcellphone; September 25th, 2008 at 03:04.
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left" Bertrand Russell
We bring only death, and leave only carrion. It is a message even a Human can understand.
Thats a pretty extreme Cron list, I can see where your problem lies though.
The Reapers are a great start, these guys can tear through power armour all day, stick doom on your target for those tough Immortal foes and 2 full squads will easily wipe out the entire squad in one volley, possibly with one squad if you get a good Tempest hit.
Falcons with Bright Lances i'm just not sold on, personally I run mine with Pulse, Starcannon, Shuricannon. Use terrain to get obscurred, keep the speed below 6" and pummel the enemy with strength 6+ shots.
The Wraithguard are a problem, while their handy at dealing with the monolith thats about it, I'd drop the large troop choice squad, thats the best part of 400pts and while their tough troops I just dont see them paying off.
The same goes for the Jetbikes, their maneuverable but lack the bite needed to chew through high toughness foes like the ones your fighting.
Pathfinders are a great choice for this kind of foe, excellent saves, high ability to punch through power armour and toughness isn't a factor. You can get 18 of them for the same cost and you still ave the 5 man squad for monolith duty. The alternative is swarms of heavy weapon guardians to thicken up your long range fire, not ideal but the versitilty stops you getting caught flat footed if they change lists.
Both Plague marines and Cron both have a 24" optimum range due to the lack of heavy weapons, you want to keep them at arms length, make use of your 36" firepower.
That said if you have them D-Cannons would make an excellent Falcon replacement. They match the optimum range of the crons and plagues meaning that your basically laying down a line that if they want to shoot you your insta-gibbing barrage artillery will be shooting back at him.
This leaves your opponent in a very bad place, more than 24" and your Reapers will pummel him into the ground with only the lith returning fire, inside 24" and the D-Cannons will rip the heart out of entire units.
So much of your original list fights at less than 24" and thats where your getting hurt most, use that superior range and you should be laughing.
"ask not the Eldar a question, for he will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know"
To the OP, if your falcon is not carrying anything and as such is not drawing the fire it needs to, either drop it or add something that the enemy will want to get rid of. Against most enemies a small detachment of fire dragons will do the trick or you could take five harlequins with Yriel or Jain Zar and that will really get your enemy's attention.
I would also say that you might want to lose some of the bikes and add some pathfinders. Bikes seem tough when you look at the Eldar codex but they are not tough. They have the same survivability as a marine, have a large footprint and don't do much damage. I definitely agree that the big Wraithguard squad needs a fortune seer, thats a major part of the point for that unit.
I would definitely recommend adding more reapers to the reaper squad and just giving the exarch crackshot. The over the horizon shooting thing is nice but scattering 2d6 without subtracting the BS is not that helpful. Give him a full squad and give him and the squad line of sight to their target if possible and they will destroy most MEQs with little difficulty.
Unfortunately giving you good effect against all these armies at once will be tough. With the crons, in objectives you should simply target the warriors and try to avoid everything else. Wihtout the warriors he can't win objective games unless he tables you.
Plague marines are a trickier business. Plasma weapons are a great weapon against them but are hard to get in sufficient quantity in a Eldar list to make a difference. Of course dropping a large squad of fire dragons out of a wave serpent will do a decent number on them. Unfortunately with the rending nerf it is hard to get great results out of harlequins against Plague Marines in CC, though a doomseer might be able to help such a situation. Shining apears aren't a great option against Plague Marines as blight grenades really limit their killing power.
One interesting option against those lists which might work is the MC Phalanx approach. An Avatar with a fortune seer or Eldrar supported by three wraithlords and some wraithguard marching up the field, The Necrons at the least would have to get pretty close to do much to hurt that and if they fail to stop it, they get rolled over in CC badly and probably swept as well. You could even throw in a support CC element (points permitting) to ensure they get really hammered. The plague marines will be more of a fight, but try to use Lances on the lords to take some potshots at the oblits while marching up the field. Then when you get close fusillade them with wraithcannons and assault with the Avatar and Wraithlords to break them.
Thanks for all of the responses! Tonight I will have to take a hard look at my army and come up with some changes. I appreciate all of the helpful advice!!!
Would banshees with Jain Zar make a mess of the Plague marines? That's a lot of powerweapons and they negate FNP rules as well. Okay the strength is low but Jain Zar hits with 5 S7 attacks on the charge. Give the exarch an executioner as well and that another 3 S5 attacks the other 9 banshees will probably do some damage leaving very little to attack back. Put this package in a Falcon and see how long they ignore it now.
falcon can only hold 6 models fyi.
If you were going to go the falcon drop off route, harlies or firedragons inside would be better