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battle wagons

3K views 49 replies 19 participants last post by  HavenDan 
#1 ·
ok im now running a list with 2 battle wagons as dedicated transports.

1st deff roller red paint job, and armour plates.
2nd 4 big shoota's

has anyone has any experience with these configurations, especailly configuration #1.

also can i have one unit disembark then another unit embark during the same turn.

ei: the BW moves 12 unloads some nobs then some regular troops move within 2"s and jumps in??
 
#2 ·
The first BW needs a weapon or it will get immobilized quickly. 2 big shootas and grot riggers I consider standard on Battlewagons to keep them rolling. 4 big shootas are ok, but it seems like a waste of its transport capacity.

If I were fielding a shooty BW I'd run a killkannon, kannon, and 4 big shootas. Loadsa dakka, but not as effective as a transport.

As for the rules question, I'm not entirely sure but ==My== gut says no. Where's Rork when we need him?
 
#3 ·
wouldnt the deff roller be considered a weapon under if a player gets a weapon destroyed roll?? im trying to keep the price down a bit. i may add the grot riggers though. as for capacity, once it drops its load its will just be raming shhht.

as for the other wagon once it drops its load it will be there just to pop shots at people and distract. it most likely wont move to much. i wish i could buy more cheapo guns for it
 
#4 ·
Dunno

I'm honestly not sure if the deffrolla counts as a weapon or not. I'd give it a big shoota in any case. The extra shooting never hurts.

I'm not a fan of the 'shooty' battlewagons. A unit of 10-15 lootas can put out a lot more 'hurt' than a single loaded up battlewagon, and contrary to what you might think, the lootas have a better chance of surviving as well (as long as they're in cover). If you're going go for a shooty/destructive battlewagon, I'd give it a deffrolla, a killkannon, a kannon (for when/if the killkannon is destroyed), and grot riggers.

I usually only use battlewagons as transports, and I usually equip them like this: big shoota, grot riggers, and if you like, deffrolla and/or armor plates. Really, only the big shoota and grot riggers are strictly necessary.

Grot riggers are a fantastic upgrade given their low cost and relatively good chance of sucess. I'd take them over armor plates any day.
 
#5 ·
does the grot riggers work when you get a crew stuned/shaken which ever one that doesnt allow you to move

also when ramming vehicles/armour with deff rolla and if i plan to move 13 but reach the armour at 6 hit and destroy do i still get to continue my movement.

and just for confirmation skimmers get some sort of save vs ramming correct.
 
#6 ·
Please capitalize, you're hurting my brain

No, grot riggers doesn't prevent 'stunned', but 10 points seems like a lot to pay for armor plates, considering they only prevent a result that comes up only 16% of the time when you receive vehicle damage, especially considering the damage only lasts a single turn. Grot riggers gets the vehicle moving again, which is a lot more useful in the grand scheme of things.

You can keep moving as you like. If it's destroyed, you really can't pass over it, and if it explodes it's difficult terrain, but in any case you could just turn away and keep moving with the rest of your movement.

All skimmers have a 4+ save versus being rammed, but I don't see anything that suggests that they get it against the deffrolla.
 
#7 ·
I though on a penetrating hit a vehicle is always shaken & stunned. Maybe that is just 4th ed. I actaully havent played for a few months and im just preparing for the gt in MD.

Is the armoured roof thing worth it?

With a deff rolla against armour being that its not a power weapon, and it doesnt have an ap when it damages does it get a minus 1 on the vehicle damage chart?

Same question for ramming?
 
#8 ·
A thousand times 'no'

You're only automatically shaken and stunned in 4th edition. In 5th edition, you suffer no other penalties unless special rules say you do (some weapons always cause at least a stunning result, etc.).

The armored roof, or 'ard case, might be worth it for vehicles you don't intend to be transports, but you should never use it on any vehicle that carries troop, because it keeps it from being open topped. If it isn't open topped, then units can't assault the same turn they leave it, and they can't all fire out of the vehicle at once. Never use an ard case unless you're sure that you're never going to use it as a transport. Of course, it's a little expensive even then. I generally don't use it.

Since it isn't an AP 1 weapon, then no, you don't get the +1 to the vehicle damage resolution. It's just a normal attack that automatically hits d6 times, with strength 10. The same goes for ramming, you don't get the +1.

I just realized something. Since it isn't an 'assault' attack, I don't believe you automatically hit the back armor when ramming with it, which makes sense. You use the armor of the side you actually hit.

That is, unless anyone else has heard differently?
 
#10 ·
Since it isn't an AP 1 weapon, then no, you don't get the +1 to the vehicle damage resolution. It's just a normal attack that automatically hits d6 times, with strength 10. The same goes for ramming, you don't get the +1.
Thanks for all the help, but i think you didnt understand my question. Being that the deff rolla is not a power weapon, and it also doesnt have an ap value. When attacking armour then rolling on the vehicle damage chart are you at -1 for lack of an ap.
 
#9 ·
I just realized something. Since it isn't an 'assault' attack, I don't believe you automatically hit the back armor when ramming with it, which makes sense. You use the armor of the side you actually hit.

That is, unless anyone else has heard differently?
Never heard differently, and I assume you're right.

Regarding skimmers, I would allow them the 4+ save to escape the deffrolla, though. Seems fair, even if it's unclear in the rules.

And I regard the deffrolla as absolutely essential, not only because it hits hard, but also because it counts as a reinforced ram and allows the wagon to re-roll difficult terrain tests. Thus, your battlewagon should always stay in/behind cover, except perhaps the turn when it moves forward to disgorge 20 angry orks.
 
#11 ·
The deffrolla would just use Str+d6. You wouldnt suffer the -1 penalty for lack of an AP because the deffrolla is not a shooting attack. units in cc, as far as I know, don't suffer the penalty using regular attacks (which don't have an AP value either because they are specifically for hand to hand) Therefore, the deffrolla doens't suffer the penalty because its basically just making a close combat attack against the vehicle.
 
#12 ·
I'm not certain that deffrolla hits count as CC hits - this whole vehicle ramming with Deffrolla needs to be clarified someday.

I'd probably play it as Str 10 AP - so thus the -1 to the damage roll probably applies. Then again, when ramming the no AP rule doesn't apply to my knowledge.....

SO confusing.
 
#13 ·
I think my question for the Deff Rolla would be if it even gets that d6 S10 attacks when Ramming another vehicle. The rules for Deff Rolla states that you get d6 S10 attacks against enemy units that you are tank shocking. The rulebook states that Tank Shocking is done against infantry and such.

Throwing your Wagon at another vehicle makes it fall under the Ramming rule, which has an entirely different set of rules and calculations of Strength, but suffers no penalty for being AP-.
 
#16 ·
Its still a different classification though. I think GW shot themselves in the foot a bit with the "special type of TS" quote- thats a special piece of rules writing.

The ramming rules are not a tank shock move as per se. They may cause tank shock during a ram (for which all TS rules would apply, DoGlory etc.) BUT a tank ramming another vehicle is NOT tank shocking it, and so would NOT use the deffrolla. This would just make it too overpowered! Take a wrecking ball too, for pete's sake. Add on boarding ramps and whatever you're up against is pretty much as good as dead anyway.
 
#18 ·
No, you can't. A reinforced ram allows you to tank shock with a trukk (or similar), not ram. ONLY tanks may ram, unless a piece of wargear EXPLICITLY states otherwise. To quote someone who I can't remember the name of:

Even if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its not a duck until GW say its a duck!
 
#23 ·
No, only a tank may ram. Other vehicles have upgrades that allow them to tank shock but not to ram other vehicles. TRUKKS MAY NOT RAM! Tau skimming tanks may ram.

Not even a trukk with a ram may ram. This was covered a month or so back now, and someone found a transcript from Phil Kelly at some Q+A session where he said that ramming is seperate from tank shock and only tanks may tank shock, and made an explicit reference to the trukk with ram.
 
#24 ·
now that I actually have the books in front of me and I'm looking at the RAW, it specifically says "tank-shock" under the deffrolla description... and with ramming being a separate rule from tank shock, it makes sense for the ramming to work as normal without benefit from the rolla... as much as I'd like to see predators and landraiders flattened out on the battlefield, I'm now convinced that the deffrolla is for non-vehicles only.

As for the tanks-only ramming... yeah, it does say that doesn't it? Still, I'm not sure why in the world the rules should limit ramming to "tanks only"- the rules are going to reward tanks either way.... and while it isn't exactly going to end well when ramming with a trukk, it does feel undeniably orky to me. Personally, I'd be willing to say that in casual games you can ram with whatever you want to ram with.
 
#25 ·
Hmm, not sure about this...

As for the tanks-only ramming... yeah, it does say that doesn't it? Still, I'm not sure why in the world the rules should limit ramming to "tanks only"- the rules are going to reward tanks either way.... and while it isn't exactly going to end well when ramming with a trukk, it does feel undeniably orky to me. Personally, I'd be willing to say that in casual games you can ram with whatever you want to ram with.
I don't have my 'dex or rules in front of me at the mo' so don't all kill me at once. From what I remember, tanks are not the only vehicles that may ram, just that they recieve +1 to a ram attack when they do, whether they are being rammed or doing the ramming. I do seem to remember White Dwarf stating something like "the ability of vehicles to ram each other, should please ork warbosses no end!" implying that other vehicles, besides tanks, may ram.
 
#28 ·
Lets put it this way. I have a land raider. I see in the rulebook that a vehicle can move up to 24" flat out and gains an invulnerable save from it. I move my LR 24" and claim an invulnerable save from it.

WRONG! This special rule applies only to skimmers as it is in the skimmers section.

I also notice that I may ram with a vehicle, so I perform a ramming manoeuvre with my land speeder typhoon. I proceed to move it superfar and ram it into a Leman Russ on the far side of the battlefield.

Where is the ramming special rule?*

Plus the codex explicitly states that RAW the vehicle is able to perform a normal tank shock manoeuvre. Nothing is mentioned of ramming, so they CAN'T RAM IF THEY'RE NOT TANKS! Obviously the battlewagon IS a tank, so may ram. (and possibly the looted wagon, though I haven't got my 'dex to hand). These are the only possible rammers in the Ork army. (Oh, andf I suppose a Skullhamma. But thats all.)


*Psssst... Its in the TANKS section
 
#30 · (Edited)
It isn't so much that the rulebook specifically states that "only tanks may ram", but more that the only reference to vehicles ramming at all is kept within the "Tank" section of the rulebook.

in the rulebook, (pg69 in the AOBR version) the rules for ramming and tank shock are under the "tanks" categorization of vehicles (as opposed to "fast", "skimmers", etc). It says specifically- "...the tank must concentrate on moving at top speed.... Ramming is a special type of tank shock....except that the tank must always move...."

So while it doesn't say that only tanks may ram, the wording and placement of the rules for ramming specifically imply that only tanks are meant to ram.

That said, I see no real reason not to let other vehicles ram. The super-fast skimmer moving exactly 24" might put a dent in a land-raider, but is also likely to blow itself up in the process. Seems fair to me.
 
#31 ·
Stop fighting, stop fighting my brothers (and possibly sisters)!
Yea, for I have been shown the truth!
*holds aloft a stone tablet*
"And yea, did Keith, voice of the most Holy Workshop of Games, decree unto I, Methodical Meat, that only tanks may Ram! Be naught another vehicle that may so strike its brethren as the treacherous and hateful tank is wont to do!"

(Translation: I called Games-Workshop, and a nice man named Keith informed me that tanks are the only type of vehicle that can ram.)
 
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