Welcome to Librarium Online!
*The TARDIS materializes with a pulsing, grinding thud. The door opens a crack, and Canew's head peeks out. His hand shoots out the door, brandishing a can of Raid*
All right, you bugs, I don't want any trouble, now. I'm not afraid to use this!
I've never posted here before, and frankly, bugs freak me out a bit, so I'm gonna stand here in the doorway a moment while I ask this, then be on my way, and in case any of you have any ideas, I really don't have much meat on me. None at all, really. And did I mention I'm a mod and lots of mods are my friends? *peering into shadows and cringing*
Seriously, I don't want to start some lengthy debate here about GW this, GW that, blah blah, but it's safe to say, WITHOUT going into details, that many players out there are miffed that GW hasn't updated their codices in, well, quite some time. I mean, some Inquisition players think GW has all but forgotten them!
Anyway, whenever I hear this argument come up (and it does, quite often, as I'm sure you all have seen), the players who complain the most always seem to come from the same camps: Inquisition (Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters, and Xenos Hunters, who seem the most upset), Dark Eldar, and Space Wolves.
Now, all of them deserve to be a little upset, but it seems whenever this comes up, I never see ONE Tyranid player jumping in, and you guys have a codex that's just as old, I think.
This leads me to four possible reasons:
1) You ARE complaining, and I just don't see it.
2) You DO think you're in dire need of a revamp, but have given up venting about it.
3) You think there's nothing wrong with the nid codex.
4) I'm just nuts or too afraid of being eaten to listen to what you guys have to say.
Anyway, just curious which it is. If the codex IS sound, why do you think yours has stood the test of time (not to mention at least two rules revisions), and not the others? If it does need a revamp, why does it seem like the nid players protest so little? I'd think you'd be as upset as all the others.
Anyway, that's it. Just asking. Carry on eating or... whatever you do in here. *slams TARDIS door. There's a grinding metal noise, and the TARDIS disappears*
I never realised until migrating to Nids from Chaos, (inspired by the mighty Hydra himself)...
but the current Nid codex is/was incredibly balanced and fun to use. It was flexible and only a couple of units were generally (but not exclusively) regarded as unusable.
Even when playing against Nids, I never ever saw them as over powered, they were a good solid opponent and a nice change of pace.
After seeing what GW has done to many other codexes... I think most of us realise that we already have something which IS half decent, and we don't particularly want to lose that. Yeah, sure some new models might feel good... but at what cost?
We stand to lose a lot more than we do to gain with a new codex.
I think it's for that reason that nids players are generally happy... just don't try and piss us off by messing with synapse and instant death! (if anyone remembers their FAQ update )
Seriously, Nids are one of the best armies in 40K hands down. Fluff, Models, Rules... they have it all.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
I think apart from the obvious 'our codex is balanced' bit - it comes down to the players mentalitys , of course there are exceptions , but you can generally tell alot about a person from the army/main armies they play , inquisition players being quite hardcore in terms of there gaming (dont confuse this with being cheesy , i just mean they are maybe more... thorough gamers in general) when i say there are certain types of gamers playing certain armys i am not including the people who choose an army because its flavor of the month , i mean the ones who have a genuine affinity for the models/fluff/tactics of any particular army.
Venom Cannons need to go from AP4 can't penetrate, to AP- can penetrate.
Then Tyranids would largely be fixed.
It would also be neat to have the opportunity to make things like Warriors into troops choices if fielded in full squads, or something ... realistically, if you want to be competitive, you're stuck going spinegaunts or the like in ginormous squads due to the troops rules changes.
MMM, the long and short is that competitively built Tyranid lists can still hammer opponents into oblivion, because our "power" lists (or mine, at least) are all built largely around scorched earth tactics.
In 4th edition, my shootyNids had the general goal of simply eliminating everything the opponent had on the board. Objectives were a secondary concern ... who cares if I capture 1 or 2 objectives when he has no models left?
Similarly, in 5th edition the same can apply ... oh, and our creatures get better cover saves now since everything and its mother is a 4+ cover. So, since these days I field 2 dakka tyrants, 2 sniperfexes, 3 zoanthropes, 120 spinegaunts, and 9 dakka warriors, you kinda just roll forward and there's almost no list in the game that can sit there and take a beating from you for 6 turns and still be able to win any of the objectives in the game right now.
There are some things we'd all like to see updated ...
Spore mines blow
Ranged anti-tank is non-existent, it's not ranged anti-tanks-shooting ... b/c we can at least shut them up about as well
Broodlords and genestealers just got even worse ... they are waaaaay too expensive for how easy they are to kill, and now are our only scoring units too ... so it actually behooves the opponent even more to expend excessive firepower on ganking them
Fearless excess kill rules really bone over gaunt-style squads ... we are badly punished for having expendable troops
Gaunts are supposed to die, soaking up fire so the nastier creeps can get in and finish the job with short ranged dakka fire or close combat nastiness ... b/c of the troops change coming well after the codex design, our most expendable and fragile troops are now the ones we HAVE to keep alive ... it changes the dynamic of the army drastically
In positive news ...
Monstrous creatures are even harder to kill, now ... you can give them 4+ cover saves just by having warriors in front of them, and they get cover from the spinegaunts in front of them ... plus, force weapons can't gank them anymore ... b/c now they just cause Instant Death
Blast weapons are better, so barbed stranglers and especially twin-linked deathspitters on warrior squads got buffed
Contrary to popular belief, template (flame) weapons are NOT better ... they're just better relative to other weapons, b/c cover is better. So it doesn't affect us much that flamers are more prevalent ... well, maybe it affects us in that lots of people are under the misconception that they're better so they take a lot more, and marines get them free in all their tac squads, etc. ... so you see more flamers, and I guess that's bad
Final note is that we are BADLY harmed by the no-consolidation rules. Tyranid close combat doctrine was "get close, then stay stuck in." Once the swarm got to your lines, you either weeded it out enough or you didn't. Our tactics required us to find creative ways to GET to the lines, using cover / massive numbers / etc. Unfortunately, clever opponents can now effectively give us meaningful speedbumps, and we are then stuck in the open at the mercy of an army at close range.
We are MORE fragile than we were in 4th, but honestly if you wanted to be ultra competitive, Tyranids couldn't lose to anyone with a properly built list ... there was a reason my dakka-list had 0 losses and 2 draws, with over 200 wins in 4th edition, and it wasn't that I was really a very good player. Tyranids were overpowered, I'll admit it and most others will too. SO, while we got nerfed by 5th edition in some annoying ways, we're still competitive enough that if we complained equivalent to the RIGHTFUL complainers (witchhunters, dark eldar, imperial guard, etc.), we'd deserve to get smacked.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
In on all honestly, even though the Tyranid codex is one of the older codexes, one of it's strengths is the fact a lot of the brood/model setups are fairly customizable. Giving us a bit more flexibility to change, or dare I say evolve, to what the situation arisies (or new rule set introduced).
Now would I like to see a the codex updated to 5th edition standards? Sure, wouldn't any person playing X army? Then again the Tyranid codex is pretty well put together, and I think no one is in a terrible rush on grabbing pitch forks and torches to storm the GW castle.
Tyranid and Eldar player....don't ask me how I ended up playing these two armies, just smile, nod, slowly move away and don't make eye contact!
I think that the Tyranid codex is fine, it is adaptable unlike some others. It is true that we don't complain as much because we have far more to lose. We don't have a wargear section to axe like everybody else. However this does mean GW won't decide to leave us alone, they will probably just scrap something else. Horrible possibilities would be lumping adrenal glands, toxin sacs, flesh hooks, acid maw, toxic miasma and implant attack together into one upgrade. This upgrade then just being toxin sacs and adrenal glands with flesh hooks. This dire thing would then be called combat biomorphs and would just be a case of showing they are nasty in assault. Only a few of these biomorphs would be needed to show it but most biomorphs would cease to exist altogether and our swarms would get rather simplistic.
I really hope I am not predicting the future. This would be similar to the way models that could buy an invunerable save in codexes like the Space marines or Chaos marines, in these codexes the invunerable saves are now automatically there but most options are gone. However it is not surprising that so many wargear upgrades have vanished, people made it clear they cared nothing for WYSIWYG. They liked the rules that wargear gave them but not the rule that said they must show it.
That is what we would have to lose, GW dumbing down our biomorphs and reducing or removing our options to breed new species and customise things. If that happens the drive to create new things will go, very sad. I can see why Dark Eldar will be complaining alot. We have got two codexes since they got their first and only codex. Chaos Marines have got three. I think GW needs to bite the bullet and give Dark Eldar some much needed love and attention.
It's Halloween. 0)Spooky post!
Last edited by Leech; November 1st, 2008 at 00:17.
Honestly 'Nids needed a bit of a down-tuning, especially 'Zilla lists. Monstrous Creature of the 'Nid variety are some damn hard-to kill Mo-Fo's. My son plays such a list. Two big squads of Gene-stealers and then two Tyrants, one shooty and one flying CC monster, two sniper 'Fexes and the rest are Twin-linked devourer 'Fexes. Shooty as hell and if you try and out CC him his 'stealers and CC Tyrant wax your nether-regions....... It has won many tournements and brings on the ambience of an aged chedder...........
P.S. I am one of those whining Inquisition players...... Give me a new Codex or give me death!!!!!!!!!!!
Must be Friday or Halloween, weirdness prevails..........
Last edited by Diggums Hammer; November 1st, 2008 at 00:22.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
I think Nids got a good deal on the kill points, but somewhat lost out on the "only troops can hold objectives" bit, but we're adaptable, we'll work around it.
Nidzilla lists illustrate this wonderfully, if you kill his two troop choices (usually cheap stealers) then he cannot hold objectives, but if its killpoints, you will have to work hard to earn each point...
Originally Posted by Karmoon