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Thread: Tyranid 2500

  1. #1
    Junior Member shpob123's Avatar
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    Tyranid 2500

    I have been playing tyranids for awhile and wondering what people think of my army list



    Hive tyrant- toxin sacs, warp field, winged, enhanced senses, 2x TL devos

    Hive tyrant- Rutine of 2 Gaurds, Enhanced senses, Venom cannon, lasp whip/ bonesword

    Warriors- 2 squads of 3 each
    scything talons, spine fists, toxin sacs, extended carapace, enhanced senses

    Lictors- 2

    Brood lord- extended carapace, feeders
    with rutine of 10 genestelers with feeders

    Genestelers- X12 scuttlers, feeders

    Hormagaunts- X16
    X16

    Ravener- X5 Scything talons & rending, devourer

    Zoanthropes- X2

    Carnifex- X3 Acid maw, Andrenal glands, extended carapace, tail-mace, toxin sacs, tusked, rein chitin, implant attk

    all comes out to 2500 or close
    i usually face heavy armour/ termies or a orc tide with heavy troops and independent chars


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    For starters, you have 3 HQ's... for normal warhammer 40k, thats not legal other than that, you seem to have very very few troops for a tyranid army thats not really a Nidzilla list.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karmoon

    Chaos is for life, not just for Christmas

  4. #3
    Junior Member shpob123's Avatar
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    O ty for the HQ thing but i was just thinking of adding a Hive tyrant with the ruetine, but dont have the model.
    the troops die to fast againsit the opponites i face so i usually dont have to many

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    The Keenest of Eyes The Hawk's Avatar
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    Here to Help

    Greetings fellow 40K minds

    If you'll permit me shpob, I'll break down your list and help out as best I can.
    However, first to echo what Gorbass has said, 3 HQs (4 if you are counting the Warriors as HQs) is disallowed in standard 40K. I'll explain what you could do in your list.

    Hive Tyrant
    To be perfectly honest, I think that fielding two HTs in the same army is a bad idea. Sure you provide the Synapse, but you also provide more Kill Points. My advice would be to get rid of the first HT (sparing up a mother-load of points), as it is unprotected and does not sport any CC weapons. As for the second one, I like it. Not too many Guards (but just enough), sports a Venom Cannon and LW/BS (which I personally think to be the most necessary thing when fielding a HT) and even has ES (another must). You have it pretty planned out. The only things that I would add to him is adrenal glands (+1 I) and Toxic Miasma. Cannot have enough Intiative, I say. It can sport Psychic Powers, so do not disregard them. I would give Warp Field, like you did to your first one.

    Warriors
    As I have said in another post, I believe the Codex states that "Warriors MUST take two weapon symbiotes". These units are a little hard to discuss, as you have not stated what squad is taking what. You've only stated in general. Perhaps post the Warriors again in their squads with individual weapons, then we can elaborate properly.
    However, in general, I don't like Spinefists on Warriors. Even when used in conjunction with Toxin Sacs. They only confer the users S (Max 6), and warriors have a S of 4 (5 with TS) so they will only be able to take out Basic Infantry and Space Marine Toughness with debatable chance. These babies should be targeting any Vehicles and be the first in a wave of ever-getting-bigger monsters against other MCs,HQs or ICs. Therefore I like a Venom Cannon/Rending/Deathspitter/Scything/Devourer kind of squad. Well equipped for anything. Enhanced Senses used in conjunction with a Venom Cannon, should work well in any favour.
    Ever considered a Fast Attack squad of Warriors? I really favour them, as I use them in relation with the Hormogaunts. They are able to unleash a hell-load of firepower into the enemy's face (especially with Deathspitters. With there being no more partials, they have become a lot more fun), while able to be a back up for the Hormies incase they fail, as they can keep up.

    Lictors
    Hands down, one of the best units Nids have. But also, hands down, they need Feeder Tendrils. No good fielding them against the HQ and Retinue and only being able to confer hits to everything else first. But a question remains. Will you split up your two Lictors, or keep them together? If you split them up, be prepared for them to be targeted by Heavy Weapons. Therefore I think it is a good idea that you use some Gaunts (Termies or Hormies) and use them for screening purposes. The overwhelming hail of fire will do wonders for any unit that will assault straight afterwards. Make sure that you use the Hit and Run Rule when you have cover around you, to make sure that they receive the +2 additional Cover Sv. No good doing it in the open.

    Broodlord - Retinue Genestealers
    Very nice. Very nice. Got the Carapace. Good. Personally, I do not give my Broodlord Feeders, as the Genestealers will finish off what is left after he is done with them. I like Implant Attack on him. The more Armour Ignoring Attacks, the better, I say. Again, Gaunts to screen them, with the fragility of the Genestealers and the CC prowess of them, they will be a major threat. Preferably, I like to keep any squads that I have to an even number, and give half one biomorph and half another. But, this is just how I would do it. If you like it, then by all means do it.

    Genestealers
    Good combination of Scuttlers and Feeders. Even number, that helps. Personally, I would give Extended Carapce to 5-6 of them.

    Hormogaunts
    Again good number. However, without any biomorphs, they are very basic, and with S 3, can't really wound much. Have some Toxin Sacs (how many is up to you) and possibly Adrenal Glands (+1 WS). Extended Carapace is an option, but still IS an option with Hormogaunts. With a squad this small however, it is viable.
    You must get your hands on some Termagaunts. The screening capabilities and overwhelming firepower will usually work in your favour.

    Ravaner
    Quite possibly my favorite unit in a Tyranid army. I would never field one without at least one brood. However, my only regret with them is that they aren't allowed even one Biomorph. However, what you've got there is what I use, except I use 6. Scything and Rending. Simply divine. And cannot beat Devourers. Think about it. 6 Ravaners each with a Devourer. 12 Shots, all able to Re-Roll wounds. WHOA!

    Zoanthropes
    What? A Zoanthrope without any Psychic Powers? Did you forget to mention it or something? It's like saying Asdrubael Vect without the Dais of Destruction, or Abaddon without the Talon of Horus. It was just meant to be. Since Zoanthropes come with Warp Field (phew), it all comes down to what you want them to do. Do you want them to aid in shooting? Do you want to help your troops in combat? If you want the latter, Synapse or Catalyst all the way, as they will make them immune to Instant Death as well able to hit back after they die. Psychic Scream is affective too. However, if you want to make "Shooty Nids" you cannot beat Warp Blast, probably the most powerful Psychic Power in the game. Watching a "holier-than-thou" Space Marine Chaplain get absolutely obliterated by a S 10, AP 2 shot adds glee to my day.

    Carnifex
    Pimped to the WAZ! Alrighty, here it goes. I'll give you a simple yes, no or up-to-you for each Biomorph.
    Acid Maw - Up to you
    Adrenal Glands - Yes
    Extended Carapace - Yes
    Mace Tail - No/Up to you
    Toxin Sacs - Yes
    Tusked - Yes
    Reinforced Chitin - Yes
    Implant Attack - No
    Fairly good, except for one teensy, weensy little thing. WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS!!!!??? A massed, bioenginered killing machine without any CC's or Ranged? Need Venom Cannon and Scything Talons. Hands Down. The End. As for everything else, there looking good. However, I don't like a Mace Tail. I have used both Mace and Scythe, and I seem to find that D3 attacks at half strength work a lot better than an extra attack at full strength. Maybe its just my luck. Instead of an Implant Attack, I give it Regenrate. When used with Synapse (No Instant Death), it is very annoying for the enemy. Considered any 'back' weapons? I use Spine Banks, on my Fex. Gotta make sure that we strike in order. Also an attack with the characteristics of a Spinefist at S 10 really hurts.

    As for the armies that you will verse, heavy armour Termies will find it very difficult to make Sv against rending Stealers and an angry Inhuman Broodlord. Make sure they are screened by Gaunts. If you give the +1 I Adrenal Gland to the Carni, target the models that have Power Fists/Klaws, and they will die.
    As for Orks, same kind of principles. But keep the army in 'evolution' style. Gaunts, Stealers, Warriors, Carnifex, Tyrant. Works for me.

    Hope you can get some information out of this. Sorry about blabing on too much. I tend to do that.
    Any queries, contact!

    PS: Next time, post your list under the Sub Forum Tyranid Army Lists. You will get more advice!

    Fly High!
    Light a fire for a man, and he will be warm for a night. Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  6. #5
    Senior Member lLonginus's Avatar
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    Not sure I quite agree with Hawkuli on all points, so allow me to chip in a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkuli
    To be perfectly honest, I think that fielding two HTs in the same army is a bad idea.
    Just try telling that to a Godzilla player.

    Your Winged Hive Tyrant is quite well equipped, very bare-bones for its purpose but that's what makes it so specifically effective! Any other upgrades would be a waste of points, and at 186 points it's very affordable, especially in a 2500 point list. Hawkuli, I feel you haven't grasped that Tyranids do very well as a pure shooting force despite their close combat appearance. Devourers shoot double the model's base number of attacks, and Hive Tyrants, being monstrous creatures, can fire two per turn. Couple this with their twin-linked status, Enhanced Senses, Toxin Sacs and Wings, and you have 12 highly mobile bs4 twin-linked S5 re-rollable shots at a good range for Nids.If you'd like a bit of statistical analysis, said Tyrant will kill, on average 3.16 Marines per turn, regardless of cover or invulnerable saves, not to mention its ability to charge into assault following such a barrage. A winged Hive Tyrant such equipped will definitely earn back its points during a 6 point game, it will absorb a horrendous amount of firepower without falling, will STILL perform greatly in close combat, and can still assault after will only yield 1 kill point for under 200 points!

    A Hive Tyrant with full retinue is very difficult to kill, so while you'll be fielding I believe 2 Kill points for the unit (though I still don't have my head entirely wrapped about the kill point system yet) your opponent will have a hard time chewing through all of that high toughness. I think you naive to desire the bonesword Hawkuli, especially on a ranged specialist (let's face it, the Hive Tyrant's walking and it better not be wasting that Venom Cannon's 3 shots). Catalyst is quite possibly the worst psychic power in our arsenal. Think about it, do you really need your high initiative hive tyrant to get his attacks after the few models that have a higher initative than he does, while said tyrant should have been trying the entire game to evade close combat in the first place? Especially for twice the cost of a pair of scything talons, without granting an extra close combat attack.We're rarely, if ever going to need Catalyst, for the only close combat units with low Initiative (Carnifex, Rippers) are units that don't need to worry about initiative order other than going before power fists. (Plus, since your Tyrant Guard ought to have Lashwhips the Hive Tyrant shouldn't need to worry about using one). Replace the BS/LW with another ranged weapon symbiote, preferably a Barbed Strangler (mmm S5 large blast). After Enhanced Senses, Extended Carapace and Toxin Sacs, upgrades get pretty useless. With Warp Field you're paying an extra ten points difference to get a 6+ invulnerable save (very low chance of getting it). Shadow In The Warp and Psychic Scream are psychic abilities you ought to consider, but probably not use since you'll be at great range. Remember, on a ranged combat creature you need not add close combat biomorphs.

    Warriors are your most versatile unit, and what you take is really ultimately up to you. Deathspitters are great with great strength and the new blast rules, Devourers pump out 4 shots a turn, barbed stranglers are still effective and venom cannons will cripple light vehicles (try to avoid Fleshborers/Spinefists as they tend to be better used on less valuable units). A winged unit with ranged biomorphs will deal out a good world of hurt. That being said, Warriors are typically best put to use supporting your Troops choices and adding a bit of "oomph" to your weaker squads. Warriors with just scything talons and rending claws are quite cheap, and still deadly in close combat. I cannot really advise you, though, as all of their upgrades are great (bar symbiote rippers) and only by experimenting will you find the variant you love.

    I really get the feeling that you aren't familiar with the codex Hawkuli. Lictors MUST have feeder tendrils, it's never an option because Lictors don't have options, you buy them for their fixed points cost and deepstrike to deploy. You never have the option to walk them onto the board, and they're extremely frail for nearly 100 points. They do best supporting other units by lending their Feeder Tendrils special abilities to friendly units, outright assault any unit besides a vehicle without a weapon skill is plain silly (unless your goal is to silence some enemy shooting for a turn).

    Alright, I'm recommending you don't listen to Hawkuli's advice at all, shpob123, because he just does not know what he's talking about. Feeder Tendrils on your broodlord is simply the best face upgrade that you can take, as it allows the Broodlord and his retinue to reroll close combat attack rolls to hit! Your Broodlord ought to never be in a position where he can be "screened", because he can infiltrate and outflank, which are far more valuable than walking him across the board.Toxin Sacs, Extended Carapace and Flesh Hooks are recommended, as you can expect to assault into cover. Adrenal Glands is just wasteful. The Broodlord and his retinue are going to come under a lot of fire, because they kill a lot, so I suggest you max them out. Give your Genestealers Extended Carapace, Scything Talons, Flesh hooks and Toxin Sacs and your opponents will fear them forever (mind you the squad does get a bit expensive). Remember the Broodlord confers his Feeder Tendril bonus to the unit, so giving the squad feeder tendrils is redundant.

    As far as gaunt go, Hormagaunts are similar to Warriors in the versatility and usefulness of their upgrades. The way you have taken them, though, is best for engaging your opponent in close combat early, closing his firing lanes and clogging the enemy for your slower, heavier hitting units to get stuck in. Extended carapace is a waste, as almost all basic infantry weapons will still ignore your armour.

    Raveners are basically Warriors with less versatility (you can upgrade a warrior to ravener status for the same cost). Leave them at home and grab something else (I strongly recommend you try Gargoyles), or if you're insistent upon taking them give them Deathspitters and Rending Claws, then deepstrike them and unleash a powerful volley upon the enemy. Remember, new blast rules, they don't have to roll to hit with their shots, and have better strength, giving them quite an edge over the rerollable devourers.

    If you desire Zoanthropes, it's probably because you want that magnificent warp blast. On the down side, Zoanthropes only hit half of the time, and that's after a psychic test. So the real question is, what do you want in addition to Warp Blast? Psychic Scream or Synapse Creature.Synapse Creature allows you to maintain a strong synapse web when you're low on Synapse Creatures, and psychic scream is great for making enemies run (its effects are cumulative, so your three zoanthropes together would drop enemy leadership to a maximum of seven, but more often, five, which is a hard roll to pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkuli
    When used with Synapse (No Instant Death), it is very annoying for the enemy... Also an attack with the characteristics of a Spinefist at S 10 really hurts.
    I simply cannot help rebutting this ignorant statement. No weapon can be S12 in the game, therefore Carnifex are immune to instant death ANYWAYS!!! And Spine Fists, like many other weapons in our arsenal, have a maximum strength, in this case, SIX!

    Aggravated idiocy rant aside, you can take two routes with your Carnifex, both which are highly customizeable: make it ranged combat, or close combat. Carnifex with Venom Cannon and Barbed Strangler are devastating at range, and a Carnifex with two TL Devourers and Enhanced Senses can be taken as an ELITES choice with still devastating effect (8 S6 shots with rerolls everywhere). Should you make your Carnifex close combat oriented, you have a wide field of choices that you alone can make. But, if you'll allow me to guide you, here are quite a few that I would avoid entirely, and why.

    Acid Maw: A decent option, but enemies will often have better Ws values than your Carnifex, and it only works in the first round.

    Implant Attack: Your Carnifex will splatter most opponents anyways, why worry about dealing double wounds to one model? REMEMBER: Implant Attack doubles the wounds successfully inflicted on an individual model, this does not mean that you can spread these wounds about the squad!

    Symbiote Rippers: Useless

    Thornback: Also Useless.

    Tail Weapon - Mace and Scythe: Decent upgrades until you realize you have to be fighting a squad of five or more models to even use it. Most enemy squads won't be that large, and if they are the extra attacks are a bit redundant.

    Tusked: +1 attack. Wooooooo.

    Spore Banks: Relatively useless and wounds the Carnifex.

    If you have any further questions or comments, please, keep posting! I would love to see you do well for the Hive Mind. Best of luck,
    -lLonginus
    My gaming group's new motto: That army you're using is overpowered because it hurts my guys, codex is broken and needs a rewrite.

  7. #6
    The Keenest of Eyes The Hawk's Avatar
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    Alright, ILonginus, I know that I have made some errors, and I know that the codex is not my best friend, but I am not the most experienced player in the world. However, I play my way, and you play yours. I am learning all the time, and I am pretty sure that you make mistakes too. I am giving my advice just like you (albeit the mistakes on my behalf), but please, in the future, do not downgrade me. We each have a style of play, and everyone sees each others differently. I know I have some mistakes in mine, but I am changing it all the time, so I LEARN! I just feel a bit angry that you said not to take any of my advice into account. I say again, I have some pretty stupid mistakes in there, but I just feel like I'm second class. Sorry to say the truth.
    Light a fire for a man, and he will be warm for a night. Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  8. #7
    The Allmighty Chaos Boots Process's Avatar
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    I would like to ask if this is an apocalypse list or not. If it is you need to tool your list and up it by about 1500 points if you want to play with what you have now´or you have to chuck alot of your current models in favour of stuff that actually works. If it is not apocalypse the list is illegal and you need to tool and tweek it and add different models.

    On the other hand you may be playing really casual games where you ignore FoC and competitive play and just have fun with models you like and thats a good thing

    I'm not going to tell you what list to build but i can give you a few general pointers.

    Decide how to win and then build your army to fit the tactics you prefer. Your current models don't have any synergy and they are even individually bad. when you have a unit decide what you want it to do. Example warriors: option 1 CC killers to support cheap troops in cc scyything/rending +1S and enhanced save (add wings if you feel comfortable with it). Option 2 firesupport base deathspitters or devourer + scything or rending +1s and carapace.

    Don't go for halfmeassures. Specialize.

    Decide the size of game you want to play.
    apocalypse, 2500, 2250, 2000, 1750, 1500, 1000, 750 or 500 (if applicable maybe it doesn't matter to your gaming group)

    decide the theme of your army.
    are you shooting to win or are you assualting to win. Do you want to do a bit of both? If you are assualting don't forget that new 5:th edition makes cassualty rates go up as you can no longer massacre or consolidate into cc after winning close combat.

    Are you into big critters, balanced or swarm?
    For those really big games you will have the points to make very good balanced lists and even nidzilla needs screens of smaller critters to be really effective.

    what do you fear most on the battlefield?
    Are you frequently chomped by hordes of terminators or do you loose brood after brood to artillery fire? Device a strategy to ensure a fair chance of winning even when meeting your worst fear. Lictors, deepstriking gargoyles or some cc deterent such as an elite carnifex as cc back up.

    then ask yourself what would happen if....
    and if you find that the answer is ...then I get wiped out... then consider changining the list to mitigate that threat.

    when all this is done and before you go and buy more minis ask yourself do i like the models if the answer is yes then enjoy your spanking new army list that will definetly be fun to play with and that will not cause you to suffer too many embarressng defeats.


    hare are some examples of units that have proven effective for various builds

    carnifex:
    VC+barb+1BS
    VC+barb+1BS+carp
    VC+barb+1BS+1W
    VC+barb+1BS+carp+1W
    devourer*2+1BS
    Scything talons*2+1WS+macetail

    Hormaguants:
    no upgrades
    +1I

    Guants:
    fleshboarer
    spinefist
    Devourer+scuttlers+1S

    Hivetyrant
    +1S+1BS+VC+barb+2guards+carp+Psycic scream
    +1S+1BS+VC+barb+2guards+carp
    +1s+1BS+2*devourer+2guards+carp+psycic scream
    +1s+1BS+2*devourer+2guards+carp
    +1S+scything+scything+wings+warpfield
    +1s+scything+scything+2guards with lashwhips+carp

    Genestealers:
    Carp

    have fun and good luck
    What is Aurora Prime?
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  9. #8
    Senior Member lLonginus's Avatar
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    Sorry for the bitterness, Hawkuli, but I could see shpob123 being misguided by your advice. Typically I'd just input one or two corrections, but with such a large number of errors I was almost entirely positive that you were unfamiliar with the codex (and I suspected you were from another forum section/army trying to sabotage the swarm with ill advice). We all do play differently, and we all do learn (I still am) but please, when in doubt, check your codex and the BGB.

    By the way it's lLonginus, not ILonginus

    lLonginus
    ILonginus

    Different.
    My gaming group's new motto: That army you're using is overpowered because it hurts my guys, codex is broken and needs a rewrite.

  10. #9
    Senior Member grantneodude's Avatar
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    Everyone has been giving great advice overall. I just thought I would add my two cents.

    I really like raveners but I have only ever seen them perform well in small point games. Yes you can make warriors for the same cost but they won't have DP or the ability to run and then assault, if I remember my rules right.

    I just love my dakka flyrant. My opponents have come to fear it because of how well it chews through their units. I would say you should drop the walking tyrant if you want to keep the BL rather than dropping the flyrant.

    As stated above EC is one of the most useless upgrades for a gaunt to have. There are almost NO guns that will give you an armor save when you simply go from 6+ to 5+. The only time this can be helpful is when you get them to CC. Even then I find it more helpful to have the extra gaunts and attacks than to give them greater survivability.

    I will end with saying good luck with whatever you decide and go slaughter some fools for the Hive!



    @Hawkuli: I realize your signature is probably rhetorical but I just thought I would state that they wear a helmet in order to GET to the target.
    Last edited by grantneodude; November 6th, 2008 at 17:31.
    Tyranids & Daemons: Soul & Biomatter please.

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