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  1. #1
    Member Kardea's Avatar
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    Tau versus the new Space Elves

    Hokay, so...
    It seems that the general consensus is that 5th edition is, overall, good and mostly fair to the Tau. Some of our wargear is a bit less useful than it used to be, but at the same time, a lot of our stuff has become significantly more useful... like disruption pods giving our vehicles a huge advantage over most everyone else's and the new rules that make jetpacks Relentless makes markerlight drones very nearly worthwhile (the exorbitant point cost is the only thing holding them back now... 1 fragile drone or 3 fire warriors? Geez.)
    My biggest complaint about the Tau is (and has always been) that we have -no- "special" -anything.- We're the most by-the-book army in the game! No power weapons, no weapons that do fancy-schmansy stuff (other than our semi-rending CIB ), no real sniping weapons, no real ordnance weapons, no special army rules, no special unit rules (other than deepstrike/acute senses, both cool but generic)... I play most of my games against the Eldar and the Orks, and it's depressing. Every time I engage a new Eldar unit, I have to read though five pages of horrifying things the unit is capable of doing to me before I make any tactical decisions...

    That being said, the main purpose of the thread is to pose a dire question: how the crap are we supposed to fight the Eldar? In particular, how do you guys deal with mechanized Eldar at 1500pts? I have been playing game after game with a close friend of mine, and they end in either a vicious draw or a defeat for me. I've identified a few key reasons for this:
    1) Eldar vehicles with star engines can boost down fire lanes and set up 2nd-turn side and rear-armor hits on my vehicles or extremely nasty shots at units that haven't reached cover. Alternatively, all Eldar vehicles are fast by default, so they can move 12" and still fire AT weapons like bright lances and pulse lasers. I played a game last night and lost my only broadside and the railgun off my Hammerhead in my opponents first shooting phase.
    2) The Falcon is basically an assault transport, far, far more effective than our Warfish, mainly because the reduced transport capacity doesn't horribly damage Eldar players when the Falcon is carrying MEQ Striking Scorpions or other horrible little beasties that often use small squad sizes. It kills me that the Eldar can field a transport only slightly more expensive than a Devilfish that can pop any tank short of a Land Raider or Monolith without even having to try hard.
    3) Eldar vehicles are VERY NEARLY UNKILLABLE. They can be upgraded so that a) you take a -1 on penetrating hit damage rolls and b) you roll 2d6 for damage rolls and CHOOSE THE LOWEST ONE. That means you have to roll double 6's to pop 'em. Nothing is more frustrating than laying into a Falcon with railgun penetrations and get stuns and weapon destroys, but never a kill. Ever. I have never killed an Eldar tank. Ever. I even assaulted one with a ton of Kroot yesterday. 36 attacks. 16 hits on a 4+ due to movement, 7 rolls of a 6 to glance... and 7 stuns/shakens. All because for every six I rolled on the damage table, I would also roll a 1 or 2 on the other d6, forcing me to take the lowest.

    Yes, Eldar are expensive to field, so I understand that it's not like my opponent has no downside to his list... but I must say that mechanized Eldar are far more effective than anything I expected. Add in a group of 10 pathfinders deploying into a high-rise ruined apartment building from the beginning of the game (giving them a 2+ cover save and huge LOS) and the Dark Reaper Exarch's multi-blast gun and I get my nose bloodied in the first 3 turns of every game I play.


    So.... Help? Suggestions? I've been playing Tau for a little while now, so I'm not terribly new, but I -am- still a half-novice. What am I doing wrong?

    Last edited by Kardea; December 12th, 2008 at 20:42.

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  3. #2
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    You can't stop a Falcon. Nobody can. Which means you just have to stop trying. I know it sucks when you know the payload inside is ridiculously nasty -- be it harlies or fire dragons or banshees or whatever -- but you have to get past that worry. Once you recognize there is no reasonable way to stop it -- seriously, there isn't -- then that frees your tactical toolbox up quite a bit.

    Keep everything mobile. Keep your fire warriors inside your 'fish unless you can drop them safely away from the falcon's drop zone. Remember, no matter how fast the Falcon is, it still can't disembark troops if if went faster than Cruising (12"). Make that sucker chase you around the board, you're nearly as fast. Draw the Falcon out, try and isolate it from the rest of the army. That way, when it catches you, you can pin down the nasties in your kill zone and eliminate them. As a gunboat, the falcon itself isn't all that scary. Lances stink, but if you keep your distance, disruption pods can really save your bacon.

    Otherwise, Eldar troops on the table should be handled like any other infantry. They're just as weak as IG, only there's far fewer of them. You're at least as mobile as the Eldar, and you're probably shootier. Where the Eldar outclass you is in assault and in raw speed. It's the latter quality that is the most dangerous, however, so that is the one you must focus on minimizing to the near exclusion of anything else.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  4. #3
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    Against Falcons, your best weapons are a unit of Deathrain+ (twin-linked missile pods with target array). The whole point of these guys is not necessarily to destroy the Falcon. With the ability of the Crisis suits to JSJ, you have an effective range of 42" on those missile pods, which is only outdone by the Pulse Laser or Eldar Missile Launcher if it's been taken. Preventing the Falcon from shooting your guys is the best thing to bother doing with those skimmers. Yes, they are virtually indestructible - so don't bother trying to destroy them.

    If they can't shoot, then they will certainly come hell for leather at you, but going flat out or even declaring that this is the intention prevents any disembarkation that turn, which gives your guys a chance to repostion themselves possibly allowing *them* to take shots on the rear armour of the Falcon.

    A risky method is to Deep Strike a unit of Sunforge (Twin linked Fusion Blasters with Target Array) behind the Falcon or Falcons. Any armour penetration rolls will be at +1 for the AP1 weapon, so even if there are holofields to beat you will get a raised result on the lower dice. A roll of a 1 or a 4 would be very adequate indeed, as that would become Stunned or Destroyed!

    As number6 said, speed is a major element of the Eldar army, so it is important to identify the most dangerous units asap and deal with them. Move away from the War Walkers with their multiple arrays of weapons and force them to walk into Fire Warrior traps. This is when the strength of the rapid firing Pulse Rifle comes into its own, since it can do the business with the Walkers, leaving your bigger guns to get on with handling the nastier stuff. Don't Fish of Fury them though; that leaves the Fire Warriors high and dry for assault. Have smaller 6-man units ensconced in hard cover for that all-important cover save. Their long reach with the Pulse Rifle will still be able to hit nicely.

    Flechette Dischargers should be on all vehicles, taking preference over Multitrackers. Don't use SMS; sticking with the Gun Drones means you can always have some sort of firepower without the MT, since the GDs always fire in addition to what would normally be allowed to fire on the vehicle. Use the full movement available to keep your Devilfish out of harm's way until you get a chance to offload your FWs into a full FoF attack on the advancing unit.

    Markerlight support is important, so factor a source of those into your list.

    Dark Reapers are one of your first targets. Hit the beggars with Missile pod fire and Submunitions until you get rid of them, or at least reduce their effective rate of fire. Having XV8s behind cover doing their JSJ bit with Missile pods is very annoying for the Reapers since they cannot relocate without losing a turn of shooting. If you're really feeling spiteful, an Ion Cannon ignores their armour save.....

    Pathfinder Rangers are a serious pain in the tail, but having a unit of Stealths (or preferably Kroot) turn up on their doorstep will certainly keep them occupied. If you know that you're going to be facing this type of threat, Outflanking is a wonderful ploy to use. Even if the Stealth unit doesn't come in on the flank you wanted, its mere presence will cause the Eldar player to hesitate; he now has a dangerous enemy unit with high firepower in his own back yard. As long as you've kept the stealth team (or the large kroot squad) out of LOS of the Reapers or anyone else with Stealth-Armour-Save-Ignoring AP, you should be able to deal with the Pathfinders either by volume of fire or by getting stuck in in combat.

    If you were to post up your list for us to see what you're using, we might be able to give you more suggestions. Also, letting us know what other models you have available to you would be a great help, since there is no sense in suggesting something if you haven't got the models to do it with!

    Hope this helped,

    E.
    "Tau Commandment #226: Participants who use Velocity Trackers in the Tau Clay Pigeon Tournament will be disqualified"

  5. #4
    Member Kardea's Avatar
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    number6, eiglepulper, you have both been very helpful to me so far. If I knew how to give rep, you'd both get some... (feel free to let me know how)

    What follows is the army list I used in the game last night... please feel free to let me know the pros/cons of what I was running and how I could better tweak it. Who knows, it may be **** altogether...

    Army list:
    Shas'0 A'dun Ashenheart (Shas'O XV HQ) - 175pts
    Pulse Rifle, Bonding Knife, Ejection System, Iridium Armor, Stimulant Injector, Shield Generator,
    Vectored Retro Thrusters
    Explanation: This is a fluff commander that I often field. He's part of my army's theme... I'm aware that he's much more expensive than the standard HQs most folks field, but I will say that I have used this exact build to more effectiveness and had more amazing "Oh, wow, did that just happen?" moments with him than any other unit I've ever used. I know there's a lot of hate for Ninja'O-style HQs, but I seem to use him well enough.

    Gun Drone Squadron - 48pts
    4 drones
    Explanation: I use these guys as a mobile cover save/extra wounds for the commander or anyone else in need. Their deepstriking ability is great.

    Fire Warrior team - 150 pts
    11 FWs, 1 Shas'ui with Bonding knife, markerlight, target lock
    Explanation: This team is my static gunline FWs. I use 'em to hold objectives they can deploy near, or to sit in cover and harass from 30".

    Fire Warrior team - 115 pts
    9 FWs, 1 Shas'ui with bonding knife
    Explanation: These guys are my slightly cheaper flootslogger fire warriors. They're static when they can be, otherwise they move towards objectives while the enemy is distracted by my bigger guns.

    Kroot Carnivores - 115 pts
    9 Kroot, 1 Shaper, 4 Hounds
    Explanation: Kroot have to be one of the best bargains in all of 40k. They consistently perform for me, either as a distraction or a great assault speedbump. If there are forests on the map (and there were the other day), then they're a 3+ cover nightmare.

    Crisis Team - 182 pts
    Shas'vre with CIB, Twin-linked Burst Cannons, HW Multi tracker, HW Target Lock
    Suit with Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi Tracker
    Suit with Twin-linked Missile Pod, Target Lock
    Explanation: I use these guys to fit my niches. I need range, the Deathrain TLs and picks 'em off. I need to kill Dire Avengers, the Shas'vre with 8 shots picks 'em up. I need to kill MEQs or light vehicles, I use the Fireknife.

    Hammerhead - 170pts
    Railgun, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, Target Lock
    Explanation: This baby finds a spot far away with optimal LOS and just sits there, popping anything that needs a hard slap... Which is very frustrating when Falcons shrug it off.

    Stealth Team - 202pts
    Team Leader with Targeting Array, Fusion Blaster, HW Drone Controller, HW Target Lock, Markerlight
    2x Suits with Burst Cannons and Targeting Arrays
    2x Markerlight Drones
    Explanation: These guys are great for coming down via Deep Strike right where the enemy doesn't want them... then popping off a bunch of assault shots and charging in. This unit is how I have managed to successfully deal with Eldar Pathfinders in cover. It's hysterical how useful a drone is simply for an extra couple of attacks in CC.

    Pathfinder Team - 177pts
    6x Pathfinders, Devilfish with 2x Seeker Missiles and a Disruption Pod
    Explanation: The markerlights on the PFs are great, and using the Fish to bring 'em in on an Outflank and fire off seekers into rear tank armor is awesome... It allowed me to Weapon Destroy (though not kill) a Falcon last game I tried it. Outlfank is what lets Seekers really earn their points back.

    Broadside Battlesuit - 80pts
    Explanation: An 80pt Stationary railgun deployed behind a concrete barricade for a 4+. That was why.

    Sniper Drone team - 80pts
    Explanation: To be honest, it's because I have the models, I like how they look, and I like the idea in my head... The only problem is that it's not quite as cool in actual practice.


    So yeah. That's my army list for the past couple of games. As for models, I have a good 20 more gun drones, several more Crisis and Stealths, a few more Kroot, another Fish, and enough bits to cobble together some more nifty anythings with heavy conversion (something I like doing anyways). Thankfully, I play in a very friendly environment where proxying models (and even using bases and (American) quarters!) is completely acceptable. So what am I doing wrong? Any suggestions? Any tactical advice? What am I doing right, too? You guys are a great help thus far! (Thanks)

    PS: I have a quick rules question... I have a team of Pathfinders. They shoot at a team of (Eldar) Pathfinders. I get five hits. Does my opponent get to role a cover save against those markerlight counters? I've been allowing cover saves since I first started playing.... but now that I re-read the rules, it seems that if a markerlight hits, that's that. No saves, wounds, or anything else. Is that correct? It would (obviously) make a HUGE difference...
    Last edited by Kardea; December 13th, 2008 at 02:14.

  6. #5
    Anemone's jelly jar Sajiisde's Avatar
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    Ahh yes, those wonderful markerlight hits! He doesn't get a cover save as you are right, they just HIT. You only take saves against wounds.

  7. #6
    RAWR! KROXIGOR!! kroxigor01's Avatar
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    You give rep by clicking the little thumbs up symbol at the bottom left of someone's post (directly opposite the 'quote' symbols).

    Shas'0 A'dun Ashenheart (Shas'O XV HQ) - 175pts
    Pulse Rifle, Bonding Knife, Ejection System, Iridium Armor, Stimulant Injector, Shield Generator,
    Vectored Retro Thrusters
    Explanation: This is a fluff commander that I often field. He's part of my army's theme... I'm aware that he's much more expensive than the standard HQs most folks field, but I will say that I have used this exact build to more effectiveness and had more amazing "Oh, wow, did that just happen?" moments with him than any other unit I've ever used. I know there's a lot of hate for Ninja'O-style HQs, but I seem to use him well enough.

    I assume you know what I'm going to say...
    I would suggest trying a 'normal' 97 point commander for a game.

    Gun Drone Squadron - 48pts
    4 drones
    Explanation: I use these guys as a mobile cover save/extra wounds for the commander or anyone else in need. Their deepstriking ability is great.
    Bit of a kill point gift in annihilation (expand to 8 models maybe?) but useful non the less.

    Fire Warrior team - 150 pts
    11 FWs, 1 Shas'ui with Bonding knife, markerlight, target lock
    Explanation: This team is my static gunline FWs. I use 'em to hold objectives they can deploy near, or to sit in cover and harass from 30".
    That's alot of points for a BS3 static markerlight (if you dropped the Shas'ui the unit would only cost 120 points). Maybe give them a Devilfish?

    Fire Warrior team - 115 pts
    9 FWs, 1 Shas'ui with bonding knife
    Explanation: These guys are my slightly cheaper flootslogger fire warriors. They're static when they can be, otherwise they move towards objectives while the enemy is distracted by my bigger guns.
    How about a Devilfish?

    Kroot Carnivores - 115 pts
    9 Kroot, 1 Shaper, 4 Hounds
    Explanation: Kroot have to be one of the best bargains in all of 40k. They consistently perform for me, either as a distraction or a great assault speedbump. If there are forests on the map (and there were the other day), then they're a 3+ cover nightmare.
    Drop the Shaper. He is alot of points for little gain.

    Crisis Team - 182 pts
    Shas'vre with CIB, Twin-linked Burst Cannons, HW Multi tracker, HW Target Lock
    Suit with Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi Tracker
    Suit with Twin-linked Missile Pod, Target Lock
    Explanation: I use these guys to fit my niches. I need range, the Deathrain TLs and picks 'em off. I need to kill Dire Avengers, the Shas'vre with 8 shots picks 'em up. I need to kill MEQs or light vehicles, I use the Fireknife.
    This unit is very confused. It is trying to do to many things at once so where ever it is placed it will always be losing some potential. I would suggest getting the standard 2 man Deathrain unit and some other unit instead.

    Hammerhead - 170pts
    Railgun, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, Target Lock
    Explanation: This baby finds a spot far away with optimal LOS and just sits there, popping anything that needs a hard slap... Which is very frustrating when Falcons shrug it off.
    Only one Railhead? I would suggest 2 or 3.

    Broadside Battlesuit - 80pts
    Explanation: An 80pt Stationary railgun deployed behind a concrete barricade for a 4+. That was why.

    Sniper Drone team - 80pts
    Explanation: To be honest, it's because I have the models, I like how they look, and I like the idea in my head... The only problem is that it's not quite as cool in actual practice.
    Neither of these units are any where near the effectiveness, versatility, manoeuvrability and survivability of a Hammerhead.

    Stealth Team - 202pts
    Team Leader with Targeting Array, Fusion Blaster, HW Drone Controller, HW Target Lock, Markerlight
    2x Suits with Burst Cannons and Targeting Arrays
    2x Markerlight Drones
    Explanation: These guys are great for coming down via Deep Strike right where the enemy doesn't want them... then popping off a bunch of assault shots and charging in. This unit is how I have managed to successfully deal with Eldar Pathfinders in cover. It's hysterical how useful a drone is simply for an extra couple of attacks in CC.
    Seems to cost alot of points to not have on the table turn 1 markering things.

    Pathfinder Team - 177pts
    6x Pathfinders, Devilfish with 2x Seeker Missiles and a Disruption Pod
    Explanation: The markerlights on the PFs are great, and using the Fish to bring 'em in on an Outflank and fire off seekers into rear tank armor is awesome... It allowed me to Weapon Destroy (though not kill) a Falcon last game I tried it. Outlfank is what lets Seekers really earn their points back.
    The Pathfinders realy want to be on the table turn 1 not outflanking (can 'half' a force orginisation slot outflank and the other 'half' not? If so then you could still outflank with the Devilfish).

    Overall your list seems very unauthadox. I would suggest proxying the 'cookie cutter' (boring I know) list for a few games and see how you like it.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Spartan Command061's Avatar
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    First off if you could give us your oppenents basic army list we can give you better advice to specifically beating him (its not a nice thing to do, but after a certain amount of defeats i'm guessing your ready to cross that line). Secondly move this to the dedicated army list forum and present it in a slightly more organised manner, personnaly its just a tad difficult to read, i'm not having a go at you, i'm just saying its hard for me to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kardea View Post
    number6, eiglepulper, you have both been very helpful to me so far. If I knew how to give rep, you'd both get some... (feel free to let me know how)

    Its a rather complicated process involving sprinting across the nearest highway with tractionlesss shoes while dancing to waltzing matilda.

    What follows is the army list I used in the game last night... please feel free to let me know the pros/cons of what I was running and how I could better tweak it. Who knows, it may be **** altogether...

    Army list:
    Shas'0 A'dun Ashenheart (Shas'O XV HQ) - 175pts
    Pulse Rifle, Bonding Knife, Ejection System, Iridium Armor, Stimulant Injector, Shield Generator,
    Vectored Retro Thrusters
    Explanation: This is a fluff commander that I often field. He's part of my army's theme... I'm aware that he's much more expensive than the standard HQs most folks field, but I will say that I have used this exact build to more effectiveness and had more amazing "Oh, wow, did that just happen?" moments with him than any other unit I've ever used. I know there's a lot of hate for Ninja'O-style HQs, but I seem to use him well enough.

    ....You do know for that amount of points you almost get 2 shas'els right? I mean you've stated he's in there for fluff reasons, but if you're looking for a win, cut him back to a shas'el with MP, PR, TA, HWMT, and find a few points to give him a twin.

    Gun Drone Squadron - 48pts
    4 drones
    Explanation: I use these guys as a mobile cover save/extra wounds for the commander or anyone else in need. Their deepstriking ability is great.

    These can go, they're not neccessary, your commander won't need them if he's hiding.

    Fire Warrior team - 150 pts
    11 FWs, 1 Shas'ui with Bonding knife, markerlight, target lock
    Explanation: This team is my static gunline FWs. I use 'em to hold objectives they can deploy near, or to sit in cover and harass from 30".

    To expensive, lose the bonding knife, markerlight and target lock, keep them cheap so you can take more firepower, you already have pathfinders so keep all the markerlights in there. I would actually use the 'fish from the pathfinders with these guys, allowing you to bolt from any falcon troops, redeploy and waste them.

    Fire Warrior team - 115 pts
    9 FWs, 1 Shas'ui with bonding knife
    Explanation: These guys are my slightly cheaper flootslogger fire warriors. They're static when they can be, otherwise they move towards objectives while the enemy is distracted by my bigger guns.

    Lose the bonding knife, its useless.

    Kroot Carnivores - 115 pts
    9 Kroot, 1 Shaper, 4 Hounds
    Explanation: Kroot have to be one of the best bargains in all of 40k. They consistently perform for me, either as a distraction or a great assault speedbump. If there are forests on the map (and there were the other day), then they're a 3+ cover nightmare.

    Lose the shaper, 3 extra kroot will outperform him.

    Crisis Team - 182 pts
    Shas'vre with CIB, Twin-linked Burst Cannons, HW Multi tracker, HW Target Lock
    Suit with Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi Tracker
    Suit with Twin-linked Missile Pod, Target Lock
    Explanation: I use these guys to fit my niches. I need range, the Deathrain TLs and picks 'em off. I need to kill Dire Avengers, the Shas'vre with 8 shots picks 'em up. I need to kill MEQs or light vehicles, I use the Fireknife.

    If these are all in one squad then i ask why, you have a spare elites slot, use it. The deathrain is fine, convert the fireknife into another deathrain, they're more effective, swap out target locks for targetting arrays, more accurate. The shas'vre could be dropped back to a monat shas'ui team leader fireknife, combine him with the two shas'el fireknives for that firepower to waste incoming scorpion units.

    Hammerhead - 170pts
    Railgun, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, Target Lock
    Explanation: This baby finds a spot far away with optimal LOS and just sits there, popping anything that needs a hard slap... Which is very frustrating when Falcons shrug it off.

    Lose the target lock, its not needed, also DON'T shoot the falcon with this guy, blast dire avengers, banshees and any other 4+ unit you can see, if you can't then land it on the Reapers, ignore the ruddy falcons until they start popping out things, then waste the troops.

    Stealth Team - 202pts
    Team Leader with Targeting Array, Fusion Blaster, HW Drone Controller, HW Target Lock, Markerlight
    2x Suits with Burst Cannons and Targeting Arrays
    2x Markerlight Drones
    Explanation: These guys are great for coming down via Deep Strike right where the enemy doesn't want them... then popping off a bunch of assault shots and charging in. This unit is how I have managed to successfully deal with Eldar Pathfinders in cover. It's hysterical how useful a drone is simply for an extra couple of attacks in CC.

    No no no, way to expensive to be a markerlight team, heck a full team of pathfinders with a 'fish is cheaper, make them 6 strong without upgrades, they're cheap and pack a nasty punch, quite easily slaughtering guardians, avengers and banshees, and small scorpion units.

    Pathfinder Team - 177pts
    6x Pathfinders, Devilfish with 2x Seeker Missiles and a Disruption Pod
    Explanation: The markerlights on the PFs are great, and using the Fish to bring 'em in on an Outflank and fire off seekers into rear tank armor is awesome... It allowed me to Weapon Destroy (though not kill) a Falcon last game I tried it. Outlfank is what lets Seekers really earn their points back.

    Why are they going into the enemies lines? You are losing turns of ML support. Deploy the Pathfinders in a good central position in your lines, use the fish with the large FW team, and cut the seekers, use the ML's only to boost BS and drop cover saves. First prioity is the rangers, hit and negate cover, then destroy with pulse fire.

    Broadside Battlesuit - 80pts
    Explanation: An 80pt Stationary railgun deployed behind a concrete barricade for a 4+. That was why.

    How is he 80pts? You've given him a TA haven't you? The ASS is better as it allows him to chase vehicles dodging his initial fire lane, and he can slowly retreat from CC enemies, buying another turn of shooting.

    Sniper Drone team - 80pts
    Explanation: To be honest, it's because I have the models, I like how they look, and I like the idea in my head... The only problem is that it's not quite as cool in actual practice.

    useless, expensive and taking up a heavy slot, change for another ASS broadside to help bring down a falcon.

    So yeah. That's my army list for the past couple of games. As for models, I have a good 20 more gun drones, several more Crisis and Stealths, a few more Kroot, another Fish, and enough bits to cobble together some more nifty anythings with heavy conversion (something I like doing anyways). Thankfully, I play in a very friendly environment where proxying models (and even using bases and (American) quarters!) is completely acceptable. So what am I doing wrong? Any suggestions? Any tactical advice? What am I doing right, too? You guys are a great help thus far! (Thanks)

    PS: I have a quick rules question... I have a team of Pathfinders. They shoot at a team of (Eldar) Pathfinders. I get five hits. Does my opponent get to role a cover save against those markerlight counters? I've been allowing cover saves since I first started playing.... but now that I re-read the rules, it seems that if a markerlight hits, that's that. No saves, wounds, or anything else. Is that correct? It would (obviously) make a HUGE difference...

    He doesn't get cover saves from Markerlgihts, the red dot hits him, he dies.
    EDIT: Here is the list i would use, basing on your stuff and using reclaimed points.

    HQ:
    Shas'el: 97pts
    PR, MP, TA, HW MT

    Shas'el: 97pts
    PR, FB, TA, HW MT

    ELITES
    Stealth Team: 180pts
    6 Stealths

    Deathrain Team: 106pts
    2 (TL MP, TA)

    Shas'Ui Team Leader: 77pts
    MP, PR, TA, HW MT

    TROOPS
    Fire Warrior 1: 130pts
    11 Shas'la (Pulse Rifle)
    1 Shas'ui (Pulse Rifle)

    Fire Warrior 2: 130pts
    11 Shas'la (Pulse Rifle)
    1 Shas'ui (Pulse Rifle)

    Kroot: 84pts
    12 Kroot

    Kroot: 77pts
    11 Kroot

    FAST ATTACK

    Pathfinder Team: 106pts
    7 Shas'la
    1 Shas'ui
    -Devilfish: 85pts
    -DP

    HEAVY SUPPORT
    Hammerhead: 165pts
    RG,BC,MT,DP

    Broadside: 80pts
    ASS

    Broadside: 80pts
    ASS

    TOTAL: 1494pts.

    Basically the Pathfinders negate cover and boost BS, while the FW's focus fire on the marked unit, the devilfish will hide until its neccessary either to run from your DZ because you simply cannot hope to kill whatever landed in your zone from the falcons, or its objective snatching time (the kroot however should be on this job with the stealths.)

    Depending on what comes in with the falcons, keep one kroot team in your DZ, use it to hold up the assault unit (don't charge, RF the unit to bits with the kroot and FW's, they should be able to mop up the rest). The Broadsides will spend the game trying to kill any serpents or falcons, the deathrains will target units slogging across the board or anything that lands in your DZ, or getting some rear shots off at the falcons. The hammerhead hides just so it can see ONE target, blasts that to bits and slides along so it can see another.

    The firewarriors sit in cover for most of the game, they will outshoot most eldar units unless they start advancing, even then you should still win the shootout with help from the Stealths.

    The stealths and the kroot (depending upon if you need a homeguard or not) are your assassins, infiltrating to blasting rangers and reapers, and a farseer if you can get to him.
    Last edited by Spartan Command061; December 13th, 2008 at 03:24.

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    Not to distract from all the good advice, but my personal experience with Eldar has shown that the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector- either on a Shas'vre elite solo suit or on your second commander (the high BS will reduce its scatter anyway), is like Raid(tm) on those cover save loving Rangers. One or two shots is usually all it takes.

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    Enthar

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    Hey, as an eldar player I just wanted to weigh in real quick and double check what your opponent was doing, a couple things you mentioned made me raise an eyebrow. Anytime someone says they're having trouble with Falcons these days it makes me curious. Falcons certainly used to rule the field in 4th edition, but to be honest they pretty much suck these days for their exorbitant point cost. That said if your opponent didn't quite get the memo on all the (certainly needed) nerfs, then that could explain some of your troubles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kardea View Post
    Alternatively, all Eldar vehicles are fast by default, so they can move 12" and still fire AT weapons like bright lances and pulse lasers.
    Just remember if they're moving 12'' they can only fire a single primary weapon, and don't benefit from the 4+ cover save of going Flat-out. As the Skimmers Moving Fast rule doesn't exist anymore, this leaves them pretty vulnerable even with holo-fields.

    The Falcon is basically an assault transport, far, far more effective than our Warfish, mainly because the reduced transport capacity doesn't horribly damage Eldar players when the Falcon is carrying MEQ Striking Scorpions or other horrible little beasties that often use small squad sizes. It kills me that the Eldar can field a transport only slightly more expensive than a Devilfish that can pop any tank short of a Land Raider or Monolith without even having to try hard.
    I figure you just mean "assault transport" in that's their primary role, but to be clear no Eldar vehicle has the "Assault Vehicle" special rule. If your opponent is launching assaults out of a moving transport, 'es doin' it wrong. And given the new "defenders react" rules and the inability to consolidate into combats, 6 man falcon squads mowing down gunlines just isn't as likely these days. Though that said, I can certainly see a squad of scorpions messing up a fire warrior squad, but if you've got another squad nearby one round of rapid firing should rightly mess them up. Even with a 3+ save you'll be wounding on 2s.

    As for for the transport costs, just to defend my honor here for a sec, the falcon layout you've been describing runs at least 155pts, assuming you take the minimum mandatory gun upgrade, and closer to 190 if you take a bright lance. That's more than just slightly more expensive than a devilfish. As for the wave serpent, a stripped down one with just an Eldar Missle Launcher is 50% more expensive than a basic devilfish. While that may glance side armor 11 on a 3, it's still only one shot and probably not nearly as dangerous to the average vehicle as a railgun.

    3) Eldar vehicles are VERY NEARLY UNKILLABLE. They can be upgraded so that a) you take a -1 on penetrating hit damage rolls and b) you roll 2d6 for damage rolls and CHOOSE THE LOWEST ONE. That means you have to roll double 6's to pop 'em.
    Did your opponent describe a) to you? Because that's a load of horse puckey if he did, there's no such upgrade in the eldar army. There's the Spirit Stones upgrade, which downgrades "crew stunned" to "crew shaken" but it has no effect on any other damage result. I'd clarify that with him to be sure, but it sounds as though he's been jerking your chain. That said, you don't have to roll double 6's to be effective when shooting a falcon. Yes, you'd need double 6's to make it explode, but is that really necessary? All you really need is to immobilize it before it can move up on your line. With a railgun and ap1, that means you need to roll two dice at 3+ to effectively achieve your aims. A squad of only 6 scorpions will get chewed up in shooting by fire warriors if they have to footslog it.

    Add in a group of 10 pathfinders deploying into a high-rise ruined apartment building from the beginning of the game (giving them a 2+ cover save and huge LOS) and the Dark Reaper Exarch's multi-blast gun and I get my nose bloodied in the first 3 turns of every game I play.
    Admittedly both of those are nasty to go up against. For the pathfinders, just throw anything you have at them that ignores cover. Without their cover saves they're T3 with a 5+ armor, a flamer will absolutely destroy them. The reapers are a tougher nut to crack, but as was pointed out already an ion canon will ignore their armor. Also, they're a maximum squad of 5, at T3 they're easier to kill by massed fire than marines are.

    Anyway, it sounds like you should double check some of this with your friend. There's a few things you described that sound a little suspect, and at least one that's outright wrong. Ask him to walk you through his list, and hopefully you can figure it out.

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    Eldar vehicles are certainly hard to kill, but between Railguns (hopefully you have at least 4) and Deathrain build Suits, you should be able to whittle them down.

    One issue with Eldar is targeting priority. Shoot his Waveserpents down first, they can carry the largest and most deadliest loads, and aren't that hard to kill in 5th ed. After the WSs are gone, then expend a bit of worry about the Falcon. It is a bitch to kill, but now can be done. Worry about all the walking stuff after. If you can send some Kroot after the snipers, that is a decent way to get at them.

    Cheers, DH
    "A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
    Sir Winston Churchil

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