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The person I play on a semi regular basis is very fond of mechanized infantry for both a Chaos Space Marine army and a Sisters army. Usually there are between three to four Rhinos loaded with troops, then some heavy fire power like a Vindicator/Landraider or for Sisters an Exorcist or two backing them up.
Usually in the first turn he moves half way to me and blows smoke. At which point I try to blow up the support and pop open those mobile tombs. However, with a bs 3 I have had little luck. This coupled with the 4+ cover save makes it difficult to stop. Especially in the 5th edition where vehicles have a better probability of staying alive than they used to.
Three other issues plague me against this list. Reapers are now only an awesome anti-MEQ unit and riders in an APC only suffer a str 4 hit if you roll an explosion. The few wounds acheived are then further reduced by the power armor. So only a couple are lost of the unit. This is favorable, however, as now they can be shot easier, but the enormous amount of firepower seems inefficient. The third issue is that if you can make it into assualt with a troop carrying rhino, and immobilize/wreck the vehicle, the troops inside can get out and shoot you the next turn. The only thing I have read to stop this is try to get troops by the exits so he cannot deploy his whole unit and stay 1" away from my troops.
Basically I have tried many different strategies, but I think I am looking at this whole thing wrong. What have you guys found effective?
I haven't played against this type of army, but I would so go Mech against him. Eldar are better. Bung a load of your squads in wave serpents and dance around the battlefield. with some EMLs or BLs on the serpents, you are dangerous to him and he can't touch you with his rhinos.
Take a couple of Fire Prisms to anti-tank him, or some FireDragon in a falcon.
With transports than can move 24" inches you shouldn't be too woried about rhinos.
But then again I haven't actually played against them so I may be missing some fine points.
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Daziel is right, going mech is the best advice. Depending on your points value I'd probably try something like:
Unit of Banshees in a serpent
Unit of Banshees in a serpent
Unit of dire avengers in a serpent
Unit of guardians w/ scatter laser
Unit of Guardians w/ scatter laser
Maybe a small unit of jetbikes.
Focus fire on any anti-tank weaponry he brings (serpents should hold your anti-tank weaponry). After that fly around and shoot the daylights out of him. Don't disembark unless it is necessary.
Everything I have told you, even this, is a lie.
you should go mech on them just like the others say...maybe you could put a small squad of guardians with lance or EML so they act as a bait while youre circling around him with skimmers....the idea of putting dragons inside of one of your falcons is a great idea....may regular enemy last year was either sisters or chaos with the setup you described and that tactica really worked against them...mount and shoot from afar and concentrate on the heavy support the lowly opponents brings against you....
Chaos is a word you created to define order you do not understand. Malkavian saying
I'm not a fan of mech armies so I'll weigh in from the more footsloggy viewpoint.
Your basically just looking at going with a slightly more tank busting emphasis than usual, smoke just means fireing two shots where one would have worked before.
Wraithlords with Lance/Launcher, War Walkers with the same, Falcons with lances, D-Cannons and Fire Dragons are all excellent sources of anti tank fire, hell even the EML's from your guardian squads and Vypers can weigh in. Pack a few extra of these type troops to get over the smoke launchers problem, my advice would be to suck up his support fire for a turn or two, it may sound crazy but give him the first turn. This lets you see his attack lanes and fire lanes, then simply deploy around them.
Block his fire support LOS, set up fire lanes of your own that will catch his transports in the open, position your troops to increase the distance needed before his transports reach combat range. You'll still get first turn one turn in six and then you can really punish him.
If your setting up first your going to have to guess at his fire lanes, luckily you'll have mobile fire support in walkers/grav vehicle or LOS wont matter for artillery so you can always tweak to get better fire positions. Generally though someone looking to make a rhino rush is looking for first turn so it won't be an issue.
Once you've popped a vehicle then your D-cannons/Tempest Launchers really come into their own, 10 ish MEQ's standing around in the open, all in relatively close proximity to each other because their trying to hide behind the wreck? Sounds like AP2/3 blast template heaven
Once you've stopped his rhino rush you should be able to outshoot his support elements quite comprehensively.
The alternative of course is a couple of screening guardian squads and a strong countercharge with fire support behind. Ignore his Rhino's safe in the knowledge you'll simple feed them some guardians and the instant they get out of the rhino they will be taking large banshee/Spear squads to the face and have your support elements engage his.
It's not very fluffy to sacrifice lives like that but it gets the job done.
Last edited by Emerald Cat; January 23rd, 2009 at 11:42.
"ask not the Eldar a question, for he will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know"
I'm still adjusting to 5th.
But mech isn't as neccesary as fast. What I mean is if he's trying to get into CC you will do well with units that can evade.
As troops bikes were and hopefully are very good at that, along with some other mobile forces. . Mech can do it too. But mech is a lot more vulnerable these days.
I also find the support weapons to be useful in this role (I bought 'em by accident but so far in 5th edition D-cannons have shone against mech forces that try and rush me).
One other thing you can do in a real pinch is block his vehicles with some of your own.
i.e. do something like fortune a waveserpent and then send it out 24" to block their clear path through terrain. Preferably getting too close for a land raider to effectively ram.
Oh! and this is a key thing, don't get cheated on terrain! Your oppenent my try and make an open field with just some terrain around the edges. Get some stuff in the middle too!.
Someone mentioned D cannons, and that raised an idea in my head. D-cannons are barrage type weapon meaning that they dont get a cover save, not even from smoke, so there goes thier precious 4+ cover. plus, even if the first one hits in the seriers, and the others are placed to the sides, the d-cannon doesnt have a str values, so it hole of the template doesnt need to be over the vehicle to cause a pen on a 5 or 6.
Otherwise, if he is 1/2 way across the field turn one, you can meet his vehicles and charge them, though you would need 6's to hit, some swooping hawk with intercept would be handy with those grenades.
This is the type of army I have played against and which has made me stop playing warhammer40k and switched me to warhammer.
A regular at our store brings 3 exorcists and nothing but sisters on rhinos and immolators (cannoness and celestians included).
I am of the opinion that eldar really don't have anything that can deal with this type of army, and that this is really no fun to play against.
I'll share my attempts with you, maybe you can get something from them.
1. First going mech isn't an option. Simply because the exorcists can blow up eldar tanks without even trying. AP1 with strength 8 means that even if he rolls 3 shots, 1 has a good chance of penetration, and with AP1 this means goodbye to the skimmers. Even if you pack holofields if he rolls more 4 or more shots, with a 3+ to hit, you're likely to get screwed.
I've had the 3 exorcists roll 4,5,6's on first turn and drop 3 tanks... good game.
Don't even think about bringing wave serpents, they'll drop first, and fast. Energy sheild is useless against an AP1 weapon
Problem is eldar can't spam tanks like marines, wave serpents are too expensive, so every serpent lost, is a squad screwed and a lot of points down the drain. A rhino popped is a joke.
2. Okay, so the issue is you have 2 choices during shooting. (1500 pt game) Youre facing about 5 rhino-type (immo and rhinos) tanks, and 3 predator type tanks. Now he moves up in a 3/2 collumn, first turn front rhinos pop smoke, cover back ones. Next turn they pass each other and the now front ones pop smoke again. He's almost 20 inches closer, and even if you drop 2 tanks, you're still in deep poop as sisters are the best at close range.
Other choice is to hit the exorcists before they rip your army a new one... and they will, cause they can drop avatars and wraithlords, and rank and file infantry like noones business. But here you have 13 front armor... your best weapon besides Fire PRisms (which won't be able to fire as they are guarnateed to be shaken if he went first, or will have no shot if he goes second) are bright lances. These come at BS3 and still need 4's to glance. Plus now the sisters get to your line.... good luck
Popped a rhino? Fantastic, but now that squad can just hide behind it (for annihilation), or waltz to the nearest objective. Shoot at them with AP1,2,3 wpns? They have faith that can make them invulnerable.
3. Okay well sisters suck at cc right? So maybe a CC option. 2 Problems with this. First if you get close to him, at some point you'll have to take a shot at their 12" range. His 12" move... 2 " deploy and 12" range make this inevitable. This is devastating as he can cause his shots to rend with faith, his squads will have a melta weapon... and if you're within 7" say hello to heavy flamers.
Blowing up the tanks in CC? Next turn you'll have 10 sisters rapid firing you, again good luck.
You're in CC, again watch him make his sisters rend and take out your wraithlord. You beat them in CC? Meet the one army in the game that ignores morale modifiers and can take its test on LD10 with the book of lucius
4. If he gets into flamer range your army dissapears, nothing can hold up to that sort of heat, not even wraithguard (which are utterly useless in this matchup as I have found out on a few occasions)
Based on these painful experienes I have tried warp spiders (sqd of five with exarch with DDS). These work well against the exorcists and can drop 1 a turn. But you have to roll well to have them come in ok (as he will hug his rear armor to table edge) and on time. 3rd turn is already too late, as you will have lost your heavy stuff.
3 fire prisms? this is a possiblity but you would have to go first to have a chance in hell, even then success is not guaranteed as your first shots will have to hit rhinos that cover his exorcists. He then moves them out of the way (or moves away from them) and you can bet that your FP's won't get to fire next turn.
An option would be 10 man guardians with EML/BL and 3 Vypers with EML and 3 squads of Dark Reapers with Tempest launchers. That would own it, but would be annoying to put together, and not much fun to play.
Any army that uses various choices and options and that is actually enjoyable, will not have much of a chance.
I suppose thats always what happens when people run tourney style lists on a regular basis. There really doesn't seem to be pleasure in playing this matchup.
Anyways my rant is over.. discuss it if you want.
Whoa... bbart brings up an interesting wall of text. He may have been ranting but he listed a lot of ways that you can't beat this type of list, which is good, and one boring way to counter this type of list. I have an idea for you however, and admittedly it is very biased. I'm just going to quickly run through a game I played against an IG player who did rhino rush backed up with russes and basilisks.
He takes first turn rips the brightlances off of my only two serpents on the board. At this point I'm thinking of ending the game because he took away my only AT capabilities on the table at the moment. I wait it out and take my turn ramming one vehicle and boosting around the others with my second serpent. The ramming serpent explodes and his rhino is unharmed. Again I'm not happy
Turn two he shoots up my avengers that were in the dead serpent and moves forward. My ace in my sleeve finally comes in! My two autarchs and eight warp spiders deep strike in a safe, open area and use second jump to move into position.
Turn three he moves again and has nothing to shoot at. My spiders spring on him, both autarchs detach and go after separate tanks, three tanks die. My remaining serpent rams the back of two tanks, exploding one and crippling the other. I was very proud of my inch tall space elves. The look on my opponent's face by the end of that turn was priceless!
My conclusion (and experience) is that autarchs are wonderful at removing tanks.
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