Friends need convincing. - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    340
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    48 (x1)

    Friends need convincing.

    Last night I played my first 2 rounds of this 500pt tourney my friends and I are playing. Unfortunately, a few of them have different interpretations of the rules.

    1. Most importantly, the intrepretation of what "UNIT" means when relating to KFF. I know with 99.9% certaintity (from what EVERYONE else with more experience has told me) that Unit means a whole "Squad", so I pointed to the rules on the Big Mek section of the Ork Codex stating "any unit within 6" gets a 5+ cover save. However, some of them think that "unit" could also refer to individual models, and they said the codex'es and Rulebook use the word interchangeabley...meaning that in one part of the book a unit could mean just one model, in another part it could refer to a whole squad. One also pointed out that it's a cover save so "half the squad" has to be within 6" on the Big Mek.

    So yeah, I've seen this pointed out mutliple times here on the Forums, but it would still be some random stranger's word vs. their opinion...so is there any official FAQ or errata that confirms that UNIT means the whole group, and not individual models? (or at least that states that any model within 6" gives the whole unit cover save)

    2. Terrain placement.
    I'm not sure how most people do this, but in the first 5 games or so I played against people at my local GW shop, terrain was a co-operative effort to make an interesting, but mostly random battlefield with about 25-50% cover. This is what IMO, the most fair method for both players.

    However, my friend (who taught the rest of us) says we should each take 2-3 pieces of terrain, and place them wherever we think would best suit our strategy to give us the biggest advantage and hurt our opponent. Oh, and we can make them any type of terrain we prefer (impassable, Dangerous, Rough) I feel this could give one army a huge advantage over another to the point where it's not even about your army strategy, but just how well you deploy your terrain.

    Here are some examples
    1. Okay, imagine a Hemisphere chunk of terrain. The outer circle area is an impassable cliff, while the inside/flat area is a 6" (give or take) wide Ramp that goes up to the much wider cliff area. (ie. like this)

    OO
    XXXXXX
    OOXXHHHXX
    XXXHHHHHXXXO
    XXXHHHHHHHXXX

    X= impassable area (until you go up the ramp)
    H = ramp
    O= Orks going around the ramp. Even if they hug the edge, the Necron can still fire down on them if the Necron are on the edge.

    Essentially, this player (Necron) will place this near his deployment zone, move all of his models on the top of the cliff and fire at my Orks while I have to trek the entire length of the battlefield (into his deployment area) around the cliff area and up the ramp before I can get into assault.

    Last game we played, my Trukk boyz did manage to get into assault with his Necron Lord on Turn 2 because he wasn't on the ramp (but near the base). The rest of my boyz took until at least Turn 3-5 until I got into assault. Also, it's rather limiting on how many squads I can get into assault...although at the end, I did manage to get to 2 squads of 3-4 boyz and one squad of 8 Shootas into combat.



    2. The other terrain abuse is a lot easier to explain. One player likes to create large areas (ie. 10 foot walls) to block off most of the battlefield and create small pinchpoints which limits how many models can get to his side of the board. Potentially, he can fire lots of shots at a small amount of units.

    Lastly, I know this is perfectly, legal, but Bunkers near someone's deployment zone with a squad of guys firing out is just plain annoying.

    Of course, I can counter these methods by making sure I take some of the terrain I know my opponent will want to use or perhaps create terrain that greatly benefits Orks (like creating long walls that are "blocking" until I can practically get to my opponents side of the board).

    Which do you think I should do? Go with the Flow and or try to convince my opponents to do the more "standard" terrain placement of randomly distribution.

    Last edited by Darkzephyr; February 1st, 2009 at 14:36.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Senior Member animated_shadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Louth, Ireland.
    Posts
    419
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    133 (x2)

    1. Unit means unit. End of story, buh bye!
    2. That's not how the game is meant to be played. The way I deploy in games, is that I
    set up the board, and my opponent chooses his side, OR, we roll a die each, and whoever gets higher picks. This way, I try not to make one side better.
    W/D/L Rumpin' BackThumpa's WAAAGH, 38/3/21

  4. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    72
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    7 (x1)

    with the KFF only one model from the entire squad has to be in to get the cover save
    when life gives you lemons.........LEMONS FOR THE LEMON GOD!!
    WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH?

  5. #4
    Torn ACL FTL ==Me=='s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Age
    28
    Posts
    4,404
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    431 (x8)

    I wouldn't even bother playing with people like that, if they're going to go so far as to cheat just to get a cheap win I definitely wouldn't encourage the behavior by enabling them.

    1) Unit refers to the unit, it only refers to individual models when the unit consists of 1 model like an Independent character, monstrous creature, or vehicle. This is a non-issue.

    2) Place terrain before rolling for your board edge so they'll have to place terrain fairly or suffer. If he deploys that cliff thing, you surround it with a foot high wall to block LoS around it completely. If he deploys walls across the entire map, you put bridges over them. They should get the message.

    The game's meant to be a fun competition, but when people act like assholes they don't deserve to play. Screw them and find a better group.
    Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com

  6. #5
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    340
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    48 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by ==Me== View Post
    I wouldn't even bother playing with people like that, if they're going to go so far as to cheat just to get a cheap win I definitely wouldn't encourage the behavior by enabling them.

    1) Unit refers to the unit, it only refers to individual models when the unit consists of 1 model like an Independent character, monstrous creature, or vehicle. This is a non-issue.

    2) Place terrain before rolling for your board edge so they'll have to place terrain fairly or suffer. If he deploys that cliff thing, you surround it with a foot high wall to block LoS around it completely. If he deploys walls across the entire map, you put bridges over them. They should get the message.

    The game's meant to be a fun competition, but when people act like assholes they don't deserve to play. Screw them and find a better group.

    Thanks Everyone.

    First, these guys are my friends that I've know for years..and I enjoy hangin/playing with them. I honestly dont think they mean to be ass-holes...they just think that terrain placement is supposed to be done this way and it's all part of the strategy. Which is why I want to convince them it should be a random thing and there should be more terrain than just 4 pieces (even for a smaller map of 36x36) or at least the terrain setup should be something that both players agree on.

    Also, I did forget to mention that we DO place terrain before rolling for map-side, but there are two ramps so he can place on near either deployment zone, which is why i was thinking of grabbing one of the Ramp pieces. I'm sure the 'ramp' idea could still be used in a normal/random terrain placement situation, but it's really annoying to have to run all the way around to his side of the board then go up a small ramp entrance to get to his guys.

    Regardless, I typically lose the first turn and map placement rolls (ie. last time my opponent rolled 1, then I followed with a 1. He re-rolled and got a 3, I rolled a 2!!)

    Now, for the Unit question....I didn't think this would be a big deal, but they're all claiming that "Unit" is used inter-changebley in the Rulebook and/or Codex to either mean models that are part of the squad, or the whole squad. I don't know where it's used to mean individual models (except for a 1 man squad). But for some reason they're confused by KFF and I was hoping for something that would make it more obvious.

  7. #6
    Member Soulshade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    247
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputation
    54 (x1)

    If your in the UK. Page 40 of this months, Lizardmen, White Dwarf. If not, heres a photo




    theres the hard proof your after. And Unit can be used in both the plural and singular. If theres one model, by itself. Like a HQ or something, its still a unit. Usualy if they mean each troop, they would say model. Its would be something like. Each modle within 6 inches gets a cover save.

  8. #7
    Senior Member animated_shadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Louth, Ireland.
    Posts
    419
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    133 (x2)

    ha ha, proof!
    W/D/L Rumpin' BackThumpa's WAAAGH, 38/3/21

  9. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    340
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    48 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulshade View Post
    If your in the UK. Page 40 of this months, Lizardmen, White Dwarf. If not, heres a photo




    theres the hard proof your after. And Unit can be used in both the plural and singular. If theres one model, by itself. Like a HQ or something, its still a unit. Usualy if they mean each troop, they would say model. Its would be something like. Each modle within 6 inches gets a cover save.

    Thanks Soulshade...I hope that works!! I was actually reading that article a week ago and I vaguely recall seeing that! Of course, at the time, I didn't realize my friends would think that "unit" could mean individual models. I'll try to point that out to them next time I play...though, I hope I can at least get someone around who knows how it works.

    Even more importantly, I looked in the Rulebook and on the 3rd page, it tells you what it means by "Unit", which for some reason my friends thought could mean either Squads or individual Models.

    In regards to that, has ANYONE ever seen Unit refer to an individual model within a larger squad or anything which may mislead someone to beleive a unit could be a whole model.
    Last edited by Darkzephyr; February 2nd, 2009 at 03:54.

  10. #9
    Warboss Alf Cossack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Age
    52
    Posts
    587
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    140 (x3)

    I would like to add to this discussion by suggesting that you not allow your opponents to play your army for you.

    Simply take your cover saves and be done with it. Any models that save remain on the table. If they want to push the issue then they have to reach over and pick up your models, which of course they aren't going to do.

    Don't let them push you around.

  11. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Surrounded by Insects & Metaphors
    Posts
    92
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    9 (x1)

    I'll add my pennies-worth to this. As I understand it, "Unit" when referring to an individual model only applies to independant characters and only if they are deployed on their own. As soon as an independant character joins another unit (a mob of boys or a squad of guard) or is deployed with another unit during deployment, they are part of that unit until they choose to leave it.

    Note this also applies to IC with jump packs/terminator armour being deployed via deepstrike with a unit that is allowed to deepstrike (stormboyz or a terminator squad). As long as you declare the IC as having joined that unit before deploying, they arrive via deepstrike with the rest of that unit. I'm only pointing this out because this wasn't the case under 4th ed rules.
    If green power armour is good enough for the Fallen One, then its good enough for the rest of us...

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts