Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Ok. So I'm an old Ulthwe player. And since I'm not shovelling over a massive pile of cash I'm still using mostly my old models.
That means guardians.
However the 'lil guys have been surprising me. When given a wave serpent.
Note that I generally play list at or below 1500 because I don't have time for longer games.
Anyway sure DA can unload near some troops and unload a vicious bladestorm.
A. You're probably only going to whack 3 MEQs anyway, even with bladestorm.
B. Being that close the the enemy means that there is a rather high chance they'll be playing with a Demon prince on their next turn. Or at the least taking some rapid fire.
C. That oh so nice wave serpent is now a prime target for all sorts of short range punishment.
D. No matter what happens you can't shoot next turn with them anyway.
Now what I've been doing with my guardians is chilling in the backfield with them and the serpent. Unloading S6 shots (or whatever) turn after turn, usually while moving 6" a turn to slide away from the oncoming doom.
Until the enemy actually gets close enough they could threaten the guardians. Then I button 'em up and scootch off to another part of the board. Setting up and shooting again if I can. Shuri catapaulting if it's really opportune, but likely favoring the security of a 4+ saving serpent on an objective the enemy thought was abandoned.
Also while you could add an 11th or 12 guardian and/or add a warlock, you can just run them at a good 60+ points cheaper unit than the typical exarced DA.
Have you played against a mechanized army? Me thinks that a rhino full o' marines with bolters deployed within 12" of your guardians is going to equal a dead guardian squad.True, given that you have only one DA squad attacking the target with no support. I think the idea is to try to either doom the target and raise your kill possibility substantially, or to hit the target with multiple squads (probably other squads in waveserpents or warp spiders or GJBs)You're probably only going to whack 3 MEQs anyway, even with bladestorm.From my experience most of the things that can really punish wave serpents (and there are few) are of the long range variety. For example, most st8 weapons (exclaimation on the excorsist). If played right you should be able to deploy your DAs somewhere in the 12-18" range, (hopefully) saving both the DAs and the transport from being assaulted the next turn.That oh so nice wave serpent is now a prime target for all sorts of short range punishment.
I don't want to downplay the legitimacy of lots of guardians, but I think that a fully mounted army with at least 2 squads of DAs is our best option with the current rules.
When you run your guardian hordes how many squads do you have? Also, what kind of army do you find it is the most effective against? Personally I'd just be scared that if the enemy shot down some of the transports the guardians would eventually have no where to run to. But maybe the amount of damage they can do in the meantime would make it worth it.
The whole point of mounting them though is that you get to pound away at the rhino for a turn or two, and then they're up in the serpent.
At least the guardians have a chance to kill a rhino. DA have to rely on something else doing that for them.True enough. But that's the Eldar's classic everything going right scenario. You hit 200 points of their stuff with 750 points of your stuff.True, given that you have only one DA squad attacking the target with no support. I think the idea is to try to either doom the target and raise your kill possibility substantially, or to hit the target with multiple squads (probably other squads in waveserpents or warp spiders or GJBs)
Not a bad way to plan, I'm hoping to do the same. But your plans are vulnerable to something not going ideally your way when you need it to happen that way.Well I am talking about a mounted army here. I'm not sure if I'd call it "lots of guardians".I don't want to downplay the legitimacy of lots of guardians, but I think that a fully mounted army with at least 2 squads of DAs is our best option with the current rules.
Though I suppose for the cost of 3 mounted DA units you could get 4 mounted guardian units (depending on loadouts).Isn't the same true of DA? At least the guardians are firing while they run.Personally I'd just be scared that if the enemy shot down some of the transports the guardians would eventually have no where to run to. But maybe the amount of damage they can do in the meantime would make it worth it.
Oh yes its completely true. However, the avengers *should* have some support in the field, either that or the waveserpent they were in moved 24" and was at least difficult to shoot down. Also, avengers won't fall as easily as guardians cause of the good ol eldar 4+ save (given your enemy doesn't have lots of heavy bolters).Isn't the same true of DA? At least the guardians are firing while they run.Yes it is, but I think you increase the chance of that ideal case happening when most, if not all, of your squads can fly out, unload, fire away, and possibly take some punishment in return. If your enemy knows that 2 or 3 of your squads are going to be sitting at the back of the board shooting the equivalent of a small warp spiders squad at them per turn they could probably focus a lot more of the other elements of your army and maybe take out the guardians in the later turns of the game.True enough. But that's the Eldar's classic everything going right scenario. You hit 200 points of their stuff with 750 points of your stuff.
I see your point about the shooting of rhinos, in my experience though if your opponent went first you'd get one round of shooting, if you go first you get two rounds of shooting. This would probably be enough to do some damage to the rhino, hopefully it would be the right kind of damage to stop it. I'm guessing that you'd also have your waveserpents firing at the rhinos too.
Just out of curiosity what else do you run in this army? And is there any way you could post a battle report? I am intrigued, don't get me wrong, just a little... skeptical i guess.
Last edited by cheart; February 27th, 2009 at 14:19.
I like the idea behind this, I've always used storm guardian squads with flamers and destructor lock in transports. I use the transports to get to the enemy, never thought of trying to get away from them. I would also like to hear a bit more about this as my guardian defenders are slowly collecting dust, and as an Ulthwe player it makes me a bit sad.
I'm still working it out myself. I'm experienced with Eldar, but still a bit newbish at 5th. For example in my last game the chaos player I was up against assured me that in fifth edition he could choose to move on as regular reserves with a unit he said he was going to deepstrike.
Unless i'm mistaken upon review that is total BS and (along with a lucky roll to end the game on turn 5, got him the win.
Here's how it went just to see what I'm talking about. Though I was for the first time experimenting with mounted guardians as I just got the additional serpent.
Anyway my force (not ideal but I'm an ex ulthwe player supporting family, so I make do).
The map was
My force (a little over 1250, I suggested a 1250 battle but he went over so I added some powers to my exarc I believe, didn't come up in the battle)
farseer runes of warding, speer, fortune (with scorps)
10x scorps exarc, claw, biting blade, stalker
wave serpent, stone, scatter laser
10 guardians with EML
10 guardians with scatter
serpent, bright lances
6 jetbikes w 2 cannon
5 DA (converted guardians, so no exarc) ride in falcon to score
Falcon EML, holo, stones
2x demon princes. They had some psychic powers but they never used 'em due to the runes of warding being present
3x big units of troop with 2x special weapons in eahc.
Havoks w meltas in a rhino
Mission was secure ground and spearhead deployment. He won the roll and took the NW corner. He set up the rhino w havoks inside by the swamp, raptors in reserve (deepstrike except not), everything else sets up around the 12" exlusion zone in the middle
I set up EML guardians on the back hill giving them a great view. Near the north east edge of my deployment zone is the serpent w scatter guards, in the southwest is the serp w scorps. D-cannons are in the bottom woods, bikes south of the back hill and falcon kinda in the middle.
i seize the initaive. The serpent with the scatter guardians moves up, deployes them and they begin opening up on his troops.
Combined firing disarms and immobilizes the rhino, and takes out a guy or two.
On his turn everything charges forward, running along.
My plan was to fire away with the guardians in the north, drawing his units there (which was working), and then swooping it away. Would have worked too except for him improperly swtiching from deepstriking to moving on as normal reserves. They so they eventually get killed by the havoks.
Scorps wind up flanking around and wiping out one of his near the rear objective.
D-cannons are mostly responsible for wiping out the guys charging into my corner. In turn five I've only lost the above mentioned scatter guardians, and main weapons on the falcon and seprent.
He's lost all his troops but three models, has wounded demon princes, and has lost a couple havoks and raptors.
On turn 5 at the end he swoops in with demon princes to contest objectives and moves his final troops into D-cannon (and some other things) range to claim one objective and thus win.
A. I'm really pretty sure he couldn't do that with his raptors. So my plan with the scatter guardians should have worked, allowing them to have been on one of the objectives as planned instead of having to send the serpent around to eventually pick up the other guardians.
B. If he hadn't ended the game on turn 5 he would have been in deep deep trouble. Between D-cannons and my other units his troops would probably have been toast. And even if not I would have been able to flat out the falcon with DA and wave sepent w guards to take two objects. And he couldn't have contested them both.
Yea your opponent definately cheated you there, no way you can change how you deploy after you've declared how they're being deployed. I hate people who blatantly break the rules just to win, take all the fun out of the game. Thats why I always play with a rulebook by my side =P.
Thats an.. interesting choice of army by your opponent. It wasn't really a mech army and it wasn't really a shooty army either. I suppose he was banking on lashing your squads into rapid fire range or something like that (the psychic power on his demon princes). Do you think you could have done as well if your opponent had a mech army? (ie every single squad in rhino) Personally I find that I can never kill the opponents troops and I can't pop their tanks fast enough to prevent their troops from getting to mine and ultimately slaughtering them. Maybe this is just my bitterness talking though, your army seems like it has a lot of anti-tank potential so would probably be okay.
That scorpion/farseer combo is interesting, your serpent should live due to fortune and the scorps will be tough to beat in cc unless the enemy has power weapons.
Good stuff all in all, you've (at least partially) convinced me that a gun-line eldar army can work if it has some flexibility. Good luck in the future, hopefully next time you'll have a more honest opponent!
I think I would have done fine against a rhino rush. The reason is that you do have to pay points for the things. Epesially if you go for smoke and extra armor. The cost of mounting everybody up would essentially mean he'd have to leave the raptors in the box.
So then I open up on the rhinos. And you are correct. In the current game environment you can't reasonably expect to halt a rush. But here's the thing. In that list the only thing that can't go 24" is the D-cannons and whatever unit of guardians isn't mounted.
So at the end of their rush instead of the sweet reward of smashing a gunline with bolters and melee they just get to kill 195 points worth of models.
And once they do the units that completed the rush are now in the corner of the board away from everything else. And the troops that lost their transport are probably straggling around somewhere, possibly getting violated by the scorps.
For example in the above battle I don't think the Havoks ever got to shoot at anything with their deadly array of meltas. The had to dismount their disabled rhino into the swamp and then ran their way toward the serpent and guardians I was moving into the north east corner of the map. After the serpent left they were just too far off to get into the game.
It all comes down to my feeling that Eldar don't have enough shooting capability or CC ability to hold out on the ground.
eldar ground forces are totally viable you just have to stick with and apply the collapsable flank tactic, this is true of any footslogging force shooting or otherwise
basic principle is rock hard units in the centre for eldar that would be wraith, scorps or dire advengers on either flank you have the slightly softer units again eldar would most likely be guardians, dragons and pretty much everything not mounted
finally at the very end of the flank goes the speedy guys these are spiders, hawks and anything with a serpent or jetbike
deployment goes in a reverse u which gradually recedes leaving your opponents mech forces firmly entrenched in a globe of shuriken goodness
long range fire such as wep supports, reapers and rangers help to "funnel" the enemy into the right place
on the flip if the enemy does target a flank the force is totally capable of closing the trap anyway sandwhiching the enemy between them and a short board edge
Believe in me, even if we are torn apart our feelings will unite us that is what this post is all about.
Our "rock hard units" are sandstone at best (except the Avatar), especially those on foot, and the enemy is able to close too fast too reliably if built properly.
And armies have so many special movement options. Deep strike and infiltrate are better than ever since they're options in all standard missions, and outflanking can quickly create a 12-18" charge zone on both sides of the board.