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First of all, I just wanted to say I'm not a Tyranid player, but I'm building a Necron army I already designed, and I have nothing to math in the meantime. Tyranids being my second favourite army (after - you guessed it - Necrons), I'm going to be comparing different typical Tyranid creature builds against MEQ units, and see how well they fare. I'll keep updating this as I go, but for starters, here are some Spine Rippers vs MEQs:
TOTAL 16 points/mini
Let's face these babies off against MEQs, shall we? First, Spine Rippers (36 of them) assault MEQs (39 of them, calculating at 15 points/mini)
The Spine Rippers (cool name FTW) shoot their spinefists at the MEQs, and deal 6 wounds, killing 6 MEQs. Then they assault, but the MEQS strike first. The 33 living MEQs deal 24.4 wounds And so kill 8 Spine Rippers. The Spine Rippers inflict 9.3 wounds on the MEQs, killing off another 9.
Spine Rippers lost: 8 - 128 points (22.2%)
MEQs lost: 15 - 225 points (38.5%)
Rippers win by a 1.8 ratio
Now the other way around: the MEQs attack. I'm going to assume they carry rapid fire weapons, so will only shoot. They deal 34.6 wounds, killing 11.5 Spine Rippers (I also assumed they rapid-fired). If the 24 Rippers left over attack, they will shoot 4 MEQs out, and then lose 8.6 minis before they can hit in CC, and then kill 5 MEQs.
Spine Rippers lost: 21 - 336 points (58.3%)
MEQs lost: 9 - 135 points (23%)
Rippers lost by a 0.4 ratio
OUCH. They suffer heavily here. Lets compare them to, say, Genestealers, shall we?
TOTAL 22 points/mini
How about 30 Genestealers vs 44 MEQs? We'll start with the genestealers attacking:
The Genestealers have higher Initiative, so they attack first. They deal 10 rending attacks, no armor save allowed. After armor saves, they kill another 8.3 MEQs. Let's say 8. The MEQs then kill 7 Genestealers.
Genestealers lost: 7 - 154 points (23.3%)
MEQs lost: 18 - 270 points (40.9%)
Genestealers won by a 1.8 ratio
Now, MEQs attack first. Once again, they are better off shooting instead of assaulting, so they'll do just that. They shoot and kill 14.6 Genestealers, we'll work with 15. The Genestealers now attack. 3 Rending kills, 6 extra kills after armor rolls. The MEQs retiliate, and kill 9 Genestealers.
Genestealers lost: 24 - 528 points (80%)
MEQS lost: 9 - 135 points (20.5%)
Genestealers lost by a 0.26 ratio.
End result? Genestealers don't seem to be a good option versus MEQs. They are only marginally better in a best-case scenario, but much worse in the worst case scenario.
he has 36 bases of them, i just did the math...except that would be a very large amount of points.
also, the genestealers. What do you mean they aren't that good at killing MEQs? you calculated them being out in the open, being shot by bolters or other special weapons. most nid players know never to leave your precious units out. Also, since when do MEQs have more then 6 initiative?
"How ironic it is that as fast as we spread progress and hope throughout the galaxy, the Tyranids spread death and despair."
- Aun'shi of the Tau
yes, I know there are 36 bases that still doesn't effect a MEQ's save.
So, If spinefists caused 6wounds 4 of those should be saved. That is what I was getting at.
35hits+24(re-rolled)= Avg. 59 hits
59/2= Avg. 29.5 wounds
9 wounds unsaved.
maybe I did that wrong, but at least now you can see why I might be confused.
Also is the point of this to compare the worth of Genestealers to Rippers with Spinefists?
Rippers can't hold objectives, won't give anything a cover save, and are vulnerable to blast templates. These are some reasons that you can't really look into with mathhammer that decrease Rippers effectiveness.
As for the genestealers, they have 4+ due to EC so cover doesn't matter anyways. And he's saying that the marines get to rapid fire for 1 turn before the genies charge them. The genies still attack first in cc.
If your only pit these 2 units against each other without cover, aren't the MEQ allowed to shoot his bolter 1x before the spine rippers can shoot at the MEQ? I mean, if the MEQ stand still the whole match, and the spine ripper approach (6" + 1d6" from running), this means they will be able to shoot one volley once the rippers are around 24" to 13" from them. Next turn, the rippers move again, and shoot the MEQ. Then the MEQ shoot a volley. Then the rippers shoot and charge.
I think this is the most 'natural' comparison.
Next, when doing a Mathhammer post, make sure you post your calculations. That makes it easier to check if you forgot something.
Off course, I hope you can agree with us, that Mathhammer isn't everything. It sure gives a bit of perspective, but not everything can be put into number. As already said, how do you give an effective cost/effect comparison if you can't put a point cost/bonus for (not) being able to capture objectives or being fearless or being able to be insta-gibbed by S6?
I have to admit, I think it's funny that I saw a post about those spine rippers, and all of a sudden, someone does the math for it.
Maybe you can do some calculations by comparing different kind of genestealers say:
1) vanilla genestealers
2) genestealer + fleshhooks
3) genestealer + scything talons
4) genestealer + extend carapace
5) genestealer + extend carapace + scything talons
(I thought these were the most seen 'stealers on the forum)
Tyranids Win / Draw /Lost 
Daemon Hunters Win / Draw / Lost 
I'll do calculations of Genestealer and Ripper Swarm variations, but first I'll fix my previous ones. As people have noted, there were some errors, so here goes the first part of the update:
DISCLAMER: this is a wargame. As such, tactics and whatnot ar just as important as miniatures. This is only supposed to tell you how well they will do once they enter CC.
Genestealers with Tendrils, Scuttler, Hooks and Carapace, at 24 points/mini.
Ripper Swarms (Spinerippers or SPRs, as I call them) with Enhanced Senses, Toxin Sacs, Extended Carapace and Spinefists at 17 points/mini.
MEQs at 15 points/mini.
30 Genestealers VS 48 MEQs
ROUND 1 - GS Assault
GS attack. 90 attacks @I6. 60 hit, plus 20 thanks to Tendrils. 40 wound, including 13.3333 that ignore armor. 8.8888 wounds unsaved, and 22 MEQs die. So 24.4444% of the attacks kill a MEQ.
MEQs counterattack. I'll calculate from 48, then see how many the 26 that are left should kill (this will make the following calculations easier). 96 attacks @I4. 48 hit. 24 wound. 12 aren't saved. So 12,5% of MEQ attacks kill a Genestealer.
Back to the 26 MEQs that are alive, they deal 52 attacks. 12.5% kill, so 6.5, or 7, Genestealers die.
Genestealers dead: 7 (23.3333%) - 168 points
MEQs dead: 22 (45.8333%) - 330 points
GS win on a 1.964 ratio
ROUND 2 - Still in CC
GS attack first. They deal 46 attacks, so 11 MEQs die.
MEQs attack now. 30 attacks, so 4 GS die.
Genestealers dead: 11 (36.6666%) -264 points
MEQs dead: 33 (68.75%) -495 points
GS win on a 1.875 ratio
30 Rippers vs 34 MEQs
ROUND 1 - Rippers Assault
They shoot. 90 shots. 30 hit, plus 20 from twin-linked. 25 wounds, of which 8.3333 aren't saved, so 8 MEQs die. 9.2592% of the shots kill.
They attack, but MEQs have twice the Initiative, so they hit first. 52 attacks, 34.6666 hit, 23.1111 wound, 15.407 aren't saved, so 5 SPRs die. 9.8762% of their attacks kill, because SPRs have 3 wounds.
SPRs finally get to attack. 100 attacks, 50 hit, 25 wound, 8.3333 unsaved wounds, so 8 MEQs die. 8.3333% of their attacks kill a MEQ.
SPRs dead: 5 (16.6667%) - 85 points
MEQs dead: 16 (47.0588%) - 240 points
SPRs win on a 2.8235 ratio.
ROUND 2 - Still in CC
MEQs hit first. 36 attacks, so 4 SPRs die.
SPRs hit afterwards. and 5 MEQs die.
SPRs dead: 9 (30%) - 153 points
MEQs dead: 21 (61.7647&) - 315 points
Spine Rippers win by a 2.0588 ratio
MEQs attacking first to come later. So far, here are my observations:
-Genestealers and MEQs kill each other on a 20:10 ratio, and are costed 16:10. What that means is, if you attack with half the number of Genestealers as there are MEQs, you should, on average, win, because you strike first. So if you attack with 12 genestealers a group of 20 marines, as long as 10 of them get into CC you should be save.
-This is not true for Ripper Swarms. Unless they get to shoot and assault, with the same number of points, the Rippers will lose.
As you can see, my first calculations were way off.
Right, I forgot to factor in Morale. I have a question, however. If a Tyranid within reach of a synapse creature has to roll Morale because they are losing, what happens? The Synapse rules say that they pass any Leadership-based tests, except psychic and target selection tests.
Also, taking morale into account, The MEQs would probably be forced to fall back. Even on a confrontation of 12 Genestealers vs. 20 MEQs, 9 MEQs and 3 Genestealers would fall, forcing a morale check on the MEQ side with a -6. This clearly gives the advantage to Genestealers, does it not?
The spine rippers, being Fearless since they are within Synapse, don't have to take Morale tests. Instead, under the No Retreat! rule (p. 44), they suffer a number of wounds equal the the number of wounds they lost by with regular saves allowed. So if they lost by 7 wounds in assault, they have to take 7 saves or possibly lose 7 more!
The genestealers have a good chance to destroy the falling back marines because of their high initiative. Look under Sweeping Advances p.40.
Oops...never mind the Synapse. Rippers are fearless anyways.
Last edited by jy2; March 6th, 2009 at 00:43.