Welcome to Librarium Online!
Remember when you got your first looted Russ? Every Ork does.
Ah, nothing's sweeter than yanking out the smoldering corpses, patching up the giant gaping holes with scrap, tying the treads back together with a firm knot, and doing your best to re-straighten the massive barrel...ah, that's good enough.
Just as you were finishing up, you realized that something was wrong, but what could you have possibly forgotten? After spending a few moments thinking, while leaning against the tank's blasted out shell of an engine, the answer finally hit you.
You needed to paint it red.
A single coat of paint later, you and a few buddies hopped inside, turned on the engine, and violently vaulted forward without the slightest bit of control, straight into a mob of Grots.
Well, it was good times, right up until those fancy nobz rolled up in their pimped out battlewagon. The ground shook violently as it veered right in front of you with perfect precision, its massive deffrolla flattening what was left of the gretchin. With a small turn of its turret, the sleek dark battlewagon aimed towards a small group of harmless animals (you believe they're called 'Guardians') and let its killkannon fire, turning the landscape into a blasted patch of earth.
This left you and your buddies feeling more than a little inadequate, and it wasn't long before the nobz were pointing, laughing, and daring your little looted wagon to do better.
They probably should've turned their wagon around before making that bet. Hurr, hurr...
Instead of our normal installment, I'm following a suggestion sent in, and comparing looted boomguns to battlewagons with killkannons. Which is better? Is either better than grots?
In either case, I've seen many people overload these vehicles with far too many upgrades, which for Orks is a surefire way to make sure they won't make their points back, since no Ork vehicle is truly resilient, regardless of how you equip them. The best you can do is keep them cheap.
When I field the looted boomgun, I only give it two upgrades: a boomgun and big shoota, for a total cost of 110 points. The big shoota is there so the vehicle isn't rendered completely useless by a single 'weapon destroyed' result. Anything else simply costs too much, considering that the base cost of the looted boomgun is the same as 3 rokkit buggies. I wouldn't even give it an 'ard case or ram.
A battlewagon with a killkannon, big shoota, and grot riggers is 165 points. Again, I don't see any other upgrades as being worth it. Deffrollas don't make sense because you can either shoot or move 12 inches, not both, and if you aren't going to move right up to the enemy, then the deffrolla isn't going to get the chance to be effective. I put grot riggers on there since even if it loses its killkannon, battlewagons are still great for ramming light vehicles.
So, secondary guns aside, a looted boomgun gets a 36in range strength 8 AP 3 ordnance shot, but also has a 1 in 6 chance of not being able to fire each turn, thanks to its 'don't press dat' rule. A battlewagon's killlkannon gets a 24in range strength 7 AP 3 shot, doesn't have the 'don't press dat' rule, and can also ram fairly well.
Which is better? Well the looted boomgun, obviously.
Sorry if that's a little anti-climactic, but I simply can't defend the killkannon. I have absolutely nothing against battlewagons with deffrollas, used as transports, but the killkannon is horribly overpriced, especially considering that the cheaper alternative is stronger, has a longer range, and can penetrate marine power armor. The ‘gunwagon’ isn’t much better. A battlewagon with 4 big shootas or kannons isn’t bad in itself, but for the same cost you can use 3 warbuggies instead, and they’ll be able to both move and fire.
Before you start arguing for the killkannon, I'd like to introduce you to an Ork unit that for some reason many Ork players have never heard of (judging by the number of killkannon users out there).
They're called 'lootas'.
Lootas also have strength 7 and only a slightly worse AP of 4, but instead of 24in range, they fire out to 48 inches. Yes, ordnance shots are nice, but if we compare that to an equal number of points in lootas:
11 Lootas = 22 shots (on average) = 7 hits
How many hits is the average killkannon shot going to get each turn? Even if it never scattered, you’d have a hard time consistently getting 7 hits a turn, not unless the enemy was literally bunched shoulder to shoulder; and since it does scatter, it's going to wind up being a lot less than that. Given the low BS of the battlewagon, when it does scatter and move 2d6-2 inches (average 5 inches), there's a very good chance you'll spend quite a few turns hitting nothing besides empty space. To make it even less of a contest, lootas don't have the risk of having their strength halved against vehicles, like the killkannon does when the center hole scatters off the vehicle.
Granted, a looted boomgun is no more accurate than the killkannon, but they have better range and stronger shots. The only thing the battlewagon has over the looted wagon is the lack of a 'don't press dat' rule, and the much improved front armor.
The inconsistency of the looted wagon can easily be made up by fielding 2 instead of only 1, and two good boomguns only cost 220 points, which isn’t much considering that a single 'cheap' battlewagon costs 165.
As for its lack of armor, since the looted boomgun has a better range, you can keep them further from the enemy and behind cover, or even within range of a Big Mek with a KFF. Since the battlewagon has to move up within 24 inches of the enemy, it isn’t really that much more likely to survive than a looted wagon, overall.
FINAL VERDICT: The Looted Boomgun wins, hands down, and it's at least as good as grots.
Rejoice Ork bretheren! For nothing's more Orky than a looted wagon (except perhaps a Stompa built out of a Mr. Potato Head), and any model that's made by smacking an Imperial vehicle with a hammer is a winner in my book!
Besides, what would you rather have on your front lines: a single smallish train-like battlewagon, or two looted boomguns, one made out of a monolith, and the other a carnifex?
Yeah, I thought so.
Last edited by mynameisgrax; March 10th, 2009 at 19:25. Reason: made an error
That's awesome Grax! I love the looted Carnifex, but is that a large Warboss riding on his back? I think it would be cool if you had some gunz mounted on his back too...but I didn't realize the Boss was that big.
As for the Boomgun vs Killkannon...I was recently comparing the two myself, and I honestly couldn't find ANY reason why you would take the Kilkannon. I mean low Str, higher AP??
I would think it would have longer range at least, but no...it's only a pathetic 24"...I mean I would be better off with
Str 7 is a bad spot to be, because it's right below the "Instant" death mark (for most units). Of course, Instant Death doesnt' matter in most cases since most models only have 1 wound anyways. If the KillKannon had a nicer Str such as S10 or something..then it would be a lot more competetive...but like you mentioned, at Str 7 you're much better off with Lootas
I agree completely and honestly I'd never thought about Lootas vs. Kill Kannon because I always take the lootas! But you've made an excellent point with that math-hammer demonstration. The only question I have about your colorful commentary is in regards to:You're suggesting that deffrollas are only a bad choice if you ALSO take a kill kannon correct?I don't see any other upgrades as being worth it. Deffrollas don't make sense because you can either shoot or move 12 inches, not both
Glad you liked the article. ^_^
The above pictures actually aren't my models. I found the pictures on the internet a while ago, and thought this would be a great time to share them (although I may have to make a looted carnifex for myself sometime soon). The guy on the back of the carnifex looks like a nob biker to me. The handles and chain are definitely from a biker set, so I assume the rest is as well.
I'm definitely only speaking of deffrollas used on killkannon wagons. The truth is, the battlewagon would be a LOT more effective if you simply dropped the killkannon, and just used a deffrolla, a single gun, and grot riggers. It'd be a lot cheaper too. Even if you didn't use it as a transport, the deffrollas will do a lot more damage than the killkannon ever could, even if deffrollas don't hurt armor (that's still in contention right now, but they're definitely worth it regardless).
Thanks for reading!
Of course the boomgun is a better gun, but Battlewagons win out over Looted Wagons any day. The Boomwagon is a nice distraction, but it will snuff it at the first sign of trouble, while the Battlewagon ignores all but the strongest of anti-tank weapons.
Another nifty trick, the BW can still carry troops inside with a Killkannon. I love throwing 10 grots in there for a cheap scoring unit huddling in an AV14 transport. You could do something similar with shoota boyz, tankbustas, Flash Gitz and the like, giving them great protection and making them that much more potent at range.
I love ==My== Dakkafortress, the Boomwagon has its place, but it just doesn't stack up.
Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com
I definitely agree. Battlewagons are nigh but pimp, indeed! But I never give them anything that can't be used while on the move. If I use them, I want to take advantage of their transport capacity, not their expensive, sub-par ordinance.
Tank Shocking with the added benefit of 1d6(+1d6) Str Wounds after unloading a large mob of boyz outweighs the limited range, movement, and transport capacity of Killkannon-Wagons.
When you consider their roles within an army list, you're likely to either...
... rush forward at full speed, unloading boyz into combat.. in which case the added support of a Deff Rolla is invaluable. Using a Killkannon-Wagon for this seems largely counter-intuitive. You will not gain the benefit of the Kannon if you move at full speed, your transport capacity is limited, and once your boyz are in combat, you will not want to drop a pie plate close to your boyz, so your targets will be limited (thus making it difficult to earn your points back)
... or, sit back and provide an overwhelming amount of fire support.. in which care, the looted wagon, or indeed lootas! (I hadn't even considered that one, nice, Grax!) are a far superior choice. Both have a far superior range and are more cost effective. Again, the Killkannon's range is insufficient to sit back, so if you're playing a skilled, mobile opponent, you'll spend half your time moving, trying to get within range (thus again, making it difficult to earn your points back)
==Your== idea, to load them up with Grots for an extremely tough base-sitter seems the only feasibly use, though I'd still argue that there are far more cost effective ways to hold your home objective. Such as the ever cheap 40 point Grotz mob sitting in cover, or a unit of Lootas (not to claim, but at the very least contest) Or indeed, a Battle-Wagon with a Kannon and 4x Big Shootas would even be more effective! (and cheaper!)
Even still, I'd much rather 2 Boomgun-Wagons, screened by 2 10xLootas Mobs, screened by Grots, all benefiting from a KFF Mek. The overlapping cover saves and extreme firepower brought to bear more than make up for the points cost.
Keep up the good work, Grax. I can't wait for next week's edition of...
"Your favorite unit (Marneus Calgar) sucks... Ghazghull Thraka Would Be Better"
I've recently become a fan of this thing called Dubstep. And you should too.
Datsik & Flux Pavillion - Crunch (Youtube)
Da Moo Kowz is da drinkinest Orks of dem all!
Indeed ==Me== is correct about the AP, they are the same. I'm a bit embarrassed I didn't double check! Having the same AP makes the argument a little tougher but I don't think it's that much different.
== Me =='s point of still working as a transport is good, but the problem I have with Battlewagon options is that it's trying to be the Swiss army knife of the Ork Army. You have so many anti-troop / anti-tank / transport things you can do with it that it's quite easy to do what Grax warned about, spending to much on the vehicle.
So yeah, you can have a kill kannon and still transport a Trukks worth of Boyz and Nobz, but if you intend to use it as a fast transport than your going to rush the wagon across the board and not get to fire your kannon. Then the Boyz/Nobz dump out of the trukk, assault and now the nearest unit and possibly the only unit within range of the kannon is in CC so you can't fire the kannon. There's a chance you'll have another target on the next round of shooting ( since you just rushed and dumped the boyz), but with the limited range and limited movement if you want to fire, the difference of 12" can be everything you need.
The other thing I started thinking about is it seems like the use of these two gunz is different. The kill kannon, with it's short range and lower strength really seems like an anti-infantry weapon vs the Boomgun makes more sense for anti-vehicle with the improved strength. So why not just take lootas for pure anti-infantry and give yourself the room for 8 more Shoota Boyz in the wagon?
And here is the real kicker for me: You can take a regular Kannon for 50 points less without sacraficing the transport space! You get the same strength, range and AP as the boomgun which is great for anti-tank, but you can also change it up to fire frag shells as well. Even though you can't move 6" and shoot like a kill kannon you can shoot 12" farther so you essentially gain 6" in range. Of course you're giving up ordanance...
Maybe this conversation should have been Kill Kannon vs. Kannon on BWs OR Kill Kannon vs. Lootas.
You're right! Whoops, I must have confused it with the loota gun. I'll change the main article.
Regardless, it's still not worth it. If you like it, then use it, but unless you're playing against an army with little to no anti-armor, then I can't see the battlewagon w/killkannon being worth it.
Transporting grotts is probably the most cost effective idea, but that's still 205 points for a unit that can't even come close to doing as much damage as 2 looted boomguns, 6 rokkit buggies, or even 2/3 its points in lootas.
For around the same cost, the Imperial Guard gets a Leman Russ with higher strength, MUCH greater range, loads of good options, heavy bolter sponsons, and a pintle mounted weapon. For around 125 points, the Marines and Chaos Marines get Vindicators. For about the cost of the killkannon wagon, the Tau get a Hammerhead and the Eldar get a Falchon. Hell, for only a little bit more, the Necron get a Monolith.
I'm not saying that killkannons can't perform well, but they are far from cost effective, their range is cripplingly short (compared to similar tanks), and literally any other vehicle in the Ork army would be better.
Again, if you like it, then use it. After all, my favorite character is Mad Doc Grotznik. ^_^
Last edited by mynameisgrax; March 10th, 2009 at 19:33.
Only time to use a Kill Kannon is if you feel like transporting Troops aswell. When the new Dex 1st came out I enjoyed running a squad of 12 Tankbustas in a Killwagon... now that made for some real fun times
As for equiping the Boom Wagon, I'd say to drop the Big Shoota and add the Ard Case. If you get a Weapon destroyed result then is a Looted Wagon with 1 Big Shoota really going to mean anything at BS2? You are better off going with the armoured top for only 5 more points and if you do get a weapon destroyed, go a Ramming!
Monkey's Killer Kan WiP (Updated 4/29)
I'm not a fan of the 'using the killkannon as a transport' idea. Although the tankbustas would have the same range, and could all fire if the wagon only moved 6in, that's an expensive unit, at around 350 points, and you can lose it all with a single lascannon/railgun shot. For that cost you might as well be using Flash Gitz. ^_^
If you like 'ard case than use it, but from my experience if your opponent is focusing his fire upon a looted boomgun, the only thing that can save it is obscurement. It's just too easy to get penetrating hits against it otherwise.