Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Everywhere I've heard mention, I kept hearing that you should bring transports along for your Fire Warriors (or at least some of them). The problem is, I just can't figure out how to use the darn things effectively!
I've heard of the FoF tactic, but I don't know if that works in 5ed because you can no longer 'assume' that your Fire Warriors can see under the skimmer model due to true line of sight.
In absence of FoF as an option, I don't see how to make good use of a transport.
A: You need to get away from an enemy
- lose a turn's shooting when you load up
- potentially lose a turn moving the 'fish so you're far enough from threats
- lose a turn when you unload
I say you lose a turn when you unload, because if you're trying to spread distance between you and the enemy, you're not going to unload within rapid-fire distance. Perhaps this tactic could be effective with Fire Warrios using the carbine?
B: You want to get close to rapid-fire and enemy
- Chances are you outshoot the enemy at range... why move closer and in-range of their other weapons?
- Without FoF, I can't help but feel that the Fire Warriors will be incredibly vulnerable following such a manouver.
The question is this:
How do you use your troop transports to gain an advantage? Whether using them to manouver during initial deployment or to re-locate as the battle shifts, or utilizing any clever little tricks to get the most out of your units, any ideas are welcome! I've never figued out how to make transports work in my favour, and I'm looking to learn!
T'oog Spiderbutt, The Useless:
Who nearly survived a tussle for some cave.
Who almost killed something in that creepy forest.
Who briefly considered holding his ground during that battle on those plains...
I was hoping for someone more experience than me to make a reply first (Pretty sure I'm the least experienced Tau player (that owns tau models) on this forum actually), but I suppose I might as well offer some theoryhammer.
Losing a turn or two of shooting from moving your Firewarrior squad is, I believe, a lot more preferable to losing the Firewarrior squard (and since the dead can't shoot, well, you're losing that turn or two anyways. Or three)... Given their not so impressive leadership, and even worse close combat skills, keeping a devilfish handy to scurry your firewarriors around makes sense to me even if all it does is sit there and look pretty. (Could be use as a mobile wall to restrict incoming fire, I believe, though I'd have to read the 5th edition about skimmers and LoS)
My (untested and inexperienced) opinion of FoF is that it's an option, not a necessity. It's a nice option though, dropping troops just barely in range to rapid fire, hopefully rendering any counterattack laughable. That's the key though to reducing the Firewarriors vulnerability after such a risky tactic, fragging the lot of them. If the target can withstand the focused fire of a squad of firewarriors, and a burst cannon, and a couple of drones on top of that, it probably wasn't a good idea to FoF them, and then, yes, you would be better off staying at 30" picking away, but still, it's an option.
"How do you use your troop transports to gain an advantage?"
I intend to use them to move my troops where they'd have a good position to fire at a selected target while avoiding return fire. Hopefully with their own transports knocked out by railguns and missile pods, my devilfish troops can setup wherever they want without too much worry of retaliation.
(Course, basically I'm just parroting what I see on other tacticas. >w>; )
Tau Online - FoF Explained
Tau Online - Fire Warriors
Last edited by Pixie; March 17th, 2009 at 09:18. Reason: Additional thoughts~
According to 5th Ed. you can shoot under the Devilfish, as long as the majority of the unit can see the target, the tagetted squad do not get their Cover Save. The same applies to them shooting 'through' the Devilfish back at you, you don't get a Cover Save (If you see them, they can see you )
If you FoFing large models, then it would get a Cover Save, as will you if it's shooting back.
If you drop the Devilfish, your squad would be let out in the open and their days would be numbered (even if in cover, they'll get pasted). The Devilfish is there to provide covering fire as well as whisk the FW to safety, do you really want your 150 point squad biting the dust after 2-3 turns? Not much to write to the Ethereals about.
It is there to block potential charges and would give the FW's a higher rate of survival , plus, the 24" max movement (even if you've embarked with the squad on the same turn! Check it out!) from the transport really gives your FW's a longer life expectancy.
I would give you a full list of the tactics behind using the Devilfish, but I haven't the time right now. Maybe later, eh?
Hope this helped.
Last edited by Kai-Itza; March 17th, 2009 at 10:19.
Well as has been said FOF is still viable, I use kneeling models in my FW Devilfish squads (easy enough to do), because these are only ever used for FOF or objective taking there is no problem with LOS in other situations. Most of the time the FW's should be in DF and this protection role is the main role of the DF.
Troops are the most valuable resource in 5th edition and every effort should be made to keep them alive until needed.
I am considering the following build for my Devilfish
This build seems at first glance to have a few advantages for the 20pts over a normal DP equipped DF. The Drones can fire whenever the DF is eligible to fire one weapon, this means the DF can fire 4 STR5 shots even if the DF moves 12" (this is what the Multi tracker is for). An SMS equipped Devilfish can only fire the same amount of shots at 12" even with a Multi, the Drones also offer twin linked shots and possible pinning, the possibility of pinning is important as it offers more survivability to FOF Fire warriors.
The Drones can detach to prevent assaults or to help take an objective.
The Flechettes are there to hurt any unit that assaults the Devilfish, this helps to safeguard the Fire warriors even more when they FOF
At the moment I am trailing this build and a bare bones Devilfish with DP's build to see if the extra 20pts is worthwhile. As it stands I am finding the build above is only really effective if the opponent assaults the Devilfish, however the four shots are nice and I have achieved one pinning result (against Marines non the less) but other than that it is not really any more effective than the bare bones for my style of play.
As for losing turns, well this can be minimised by good deployment, deploying the FW's in the Devilfish and deploying the Pathfinder Devilfish (if used for the FW squad) near the Fire Warrior squad. If the Fire warriors are disembarked to shoot the odds are that they will need to be out for two turns anyway (to finish the targeted unit) and as was said earlier re-embarking the FW after they have FOF'id should not be seen as losing a turn of shooting but seen as protecting your valuable squad. Objectives can be taken and secured by a unit of FW's in a Devilfish, so you do not even need to disembark them; this means that the opponent is faced with destroying a vehicle and FW unit to take the objective.
The role of the Devilfish has basically been more refined in 5th. It is there more as a protective transport and also as a vital aid in taking and controlling objectives (Flechettes are vital for this role if facing hoard armies).
Its role as an offensive semi-tank has been reduced quite radically mainly because of the changes to moving and shooting, the removal of skimmer benefits and the vulnerability of vehicles in assaults (rear armour always hit). These changes have meant it is not that advisable to use transports as screens to prevent assaults and has pushed the use of the devilfish towards a more cautionary transport role..
I tend to go light with the Devilfish and leave the killing to the HH. Don't get me wrong Riki. but, when the battle heats up, enemy models would be within charge range of our squishy FW squads by about turns 2-3. Yes I agree that the Devilfish is very useful in terms of shooting and moving the FW's, but you must consider the vehicle's primary role/objective that it must achieve, the role where it must be centered on unit selection/upgrades and usage on the battlefield.
The primary role for the Devilfish, IMO anyway , would be to cart the FW squad around and keep it from harm, the firepower that comes from it is only a secondary role that it could perform; to boost the amount of shots in combination to the FW's.
Taking the Mutli for the Devilfish is a bit costly for an APC, if placed on a HH it become way more useful (as we both know, it's almost a standard upgrade for it, amongst other things), when the Drone detach, that XX point upgrade would be therefore useless from that point onwards, which is half the game, half the time.
Usually, I sniff at the idea of taking the Flechettes, for XX points it's making you Devilfish that much more expensive as an APC. An enemy Heavy Weapon would change all that and make that upgrade useless, another point would be that the Devilfish would probably get charged about once or twice if you used it effectively. Yes I'd agree that wounding every miniature that charges it within 2" on a 4+ is a very cool idea, but that only wounds half the time and the enemy squads return attacks would probably mean one dead Devilfish and one stranded FW squad.
I usually go for the most 'bare-bones' with my Devilfish as possible:
That's it. This would give that APC the suvivability it needs to either whisk the FW's to safety or do a FoF on an enemy unit/squad, plus it's cheap enough not to worry about losing a 100+ point model and allows you the apre points to spend on other areas that probably needs upgrades/additions more than the Devilfish.
The idea behind the Lionfish (my name for the Flechette Devilfish, check out how Lionfish defend themselves) is to keep the Fire warriors safe, to have a bit of extra fire power available while the DF is protecting and carrying the FW's around, to protect the FW when and if they FOF, to have extra defences when assaulted which helps keep the FW safer because the longer the DF stays in one piece the better it is for the FW's inside and lastly to help when taking objective and to make the DF survivable when helping the FW's hold an objective. I do not think that is a bad deal for 20pts over the bare bones DF.
Also the Gun Drones are only disembarked to help with objective taking/holding and if needed to help prevent if the FW's are assaulted.
The Multi is not wasted if the Gundrones disembark because the Burst cannon can still fire, the point is that with the Drones they can always fire if the vehicle is eligible to fire one of its weapons, this does not apply to the SMS upgrade (you have to choose the between the BC or SMS if moving over 6").
Let me make something clear the Lionfish is not a Warfish in anyway shape or form, it is not an offensive tank; it is a FW protection and support vehicle. Its primary role is as a FW transport, just the same as the barebones Devilfish.
Aft looking again at the Flechettes in the Codex, I find that for 10 points, it is pricey and the benefits are good only if it is charged.
Against MEQ's and TEQ's this could be blunted by way of their hefty armour saves and their ability to survive most small arm fire that allows their full armour saves. This tough nut will be reduced by the Devilfishes and FW's firepower and the Flechettes if the tank itself is charged, simply with the weight of shots pressured on the FoFed squad.
Against stuff like Monstrous Creatures, the Flechettes would not make much of a dent, but does have a small chance of wounding the beastie once, that is if you make the valuable 4+ to wound and if your opponent is unlucky enough to fail the AS/Inv.
In conclusion, I find that the Flechettes are a good buy if your tank gets charged and I might try it out in a game sometime to truly test out it's effectiveness, as in my experience, most squads that I played against elect to shoot 'through' the Devilfish and leave the little tank to other heavy weapons in the army.
It might sound strange, but this did happen to me on more than one occasion and more than one player to boot! Though the squads that I do FoF are usually fire support squads or the infantry type.
*Recaps on vehicle shooting and moving rules in LRB*
For some reason I kept thinking that normal vehicles can move 12" and fire a single main weapon. Whereas it does not.
Which is obviously why that Multi is there.
Though the Flechettes are still a mystery to me and I'm still iffy about taking them due to me wanting to use them in other parts of the army (I'm experimenting with different 'suit builds at the moment), and I find that 105 points for an APC is a tad expensive for my tastes at the moment, (though due to change when I experiment with the Lionfish build).
Fletchett discharger makes ya fish better at hand to hand than any Tau infantry!!! LOL
Tho it can be disastrously useless sometimes...