Battle Report analysis - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    Battle Report analysis

    Here is something I tried before to get a little more out of a battle report and make it a little more interactive and perhaps make it a learning experience for everyone including me. Instead of just putting the lists out and tell you what happens all at once I want to hear how you would setup your forces and go about the opening turns if I give you the opponents list, map layout and mission. As for your 1750 point list, post it and tell us your setup.

    Let me be fair that the player I had this game with was a good friend and we have played dozens of times in the past except it was against his Tau - now, he is trying Space Marines. He is a little new to the army and he made some really questionable decisions in the game. Here is his list and you can tell it wasn't refined and a little off:

    1750 point Imperial Fists (to the best I can remember).

    Lysander

    Chaplain w/jump pack with plasma pistol

    10 Assault Marines, sgt., power weapon

    10 Tac Marines, missle launcher, melta , Vet Sgt. w/powerfist

    10 Tac Marines, missle launcher, melta , Vet Sgt. w/powerfist

    Rhino, pintle bolter and bolter

    Razor back with las cannons and extra armor

    Dreadnaught with heavy flamer and assault cannon

    Dreadnaught with heavy flamer and assault cannon

    3 Marine Bike Squad - just plain.

    Landspeeder, assault cannon and multi melta

    Vindicator extra armor

    Predator with all las cannons.


    Little lights and sirens should be going off in your head that he lacks scoring units and although I think Marine lists have a tough time with that I think another Marine Squad is needed and being a new Space Marine player I think he fell into that trap of having the fancy stuff (not enough meat and too many potatoes).

    Okay, he won first deployment and setup and the mission is "Capture & Control" (the one with 2 objectives) in a "pitched battle" deployment - my friend wrings his hands is very happy with both missions.

    He sets up and and this is what you see:


    Notes about the board - its not to scale, really.

    *Ruins are spaced apart and you can draw line of sight through them easily but you can get 50% obscured with your raiders.

    *The upper left most ruins with the marines in it is 3 levels and his missle launcher dude is at the top I believe.

    *The center ruin is 3+ cover per Lysanders rule of some sort but all his marines heads are for the most part visible.

    *The craters were deemed to be 4+ cover for infantry inside them but they do not obscure line of sight beyond them, just the units inside them.

    *I chose the location of my objective but I'd be curious where you would put if you had the choice.

    There is no right or wrong answer here - since we cannot really play your list and we know the opponent would have reacted differently then I am looking to avoid any right/wrong decision calling on anyones part.

    Last edited by KwiKwag; April 8th, 2009 at 03:15.
    "On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]

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  3. #2
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    Mate I am not ignoring you, its just that I am having great trouble opening up that picture of the board!

    And kudos to you for the interactive tutorial, the last one I saw on these boards was done by Karantalsis years ago and it too took some effort to post.

    Cheers.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

  4. #3
    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    Yah, I got to figure that out with the pic as for some reason I can not get it to show - give me some time and I will get it to work.

    Hah, I think I got it now...
    Last edited by KwiKwag; April 8th, 2009 at 02:29.
    "On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]

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    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    I must admit that I would have chosen the same place due to being away from his troops the most and in cover.

    Either that or quizzically the Ruin that Lysander is behind since, as you say that its rated at a 3+ cover save due to the ‘Bolster Defences ‘ rule

    But you only had just the 2 objectives here?
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

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    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicky View Post
    I must admit that I would have chosen the same place due to being away from his troops the most and in cover.
    That's was my thought too.

    But you only had just the 2 objectives here?
    Sorry, its called "Capture and Control" - the one with 2 objectives (I'll fix that above)
    "On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]

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    Personally I would have put the objective further forward and towards the middle. I tend to minimize my use of sniper squads, and instead go for a large forward movement, by placing the objective closer to the already placed one it serves two purposes.

    The first is to encourage him to send troops towards it earlier than he had expected, This potentially allows me to engage them in melee in no mans land giving me some protection from shooting in the process of crossing the battlefield.

    The second is that I often find myself with 1 or 2 raiders left late in the game who got got an early weapon destroyed and let thier cargo out already, and while they can pick up warriors and zip them 24" away to claim an objective, by having the two objectives closer together, and especially by having them closer to where I'm fighting, I feel it gives me more freedom in which objective I can claim late in the game.

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    Member Gardeth's Avatar
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    My standard list

    Archon-shadowfield, combat drugs, t.helm, punisher, trophy rack, plasma nades

    wyche dracate-agonizer, trophy rack
    6 wyches w.weapons, plasma nades, succubus with agonizer
    Raider-horrofex, nightshields

    7 wyches wyches w.weapons, plasma nades, succubus with agonizer, trophy rack
    Raider-horrofex, nightshields

    5 warriors with darklance
    Raider with horrofex

    x4 5 warriors with splinter cannon, blaster
    raider with horrofex and night shields

    x3 Ravagers w/dissies
    nightshields


    I would deploy almost everything to the far left, save for the 5 man dark lance squad who would deploy on the objective out of their raider. I would use their empty raider to block LOS from his Razorback to as many of my other vehicles as possible.

    On turn 1 I would make destroying the Lascannon razorback and his landspeeder a priority (the predator as well if it moved closer). The ravagers would focus fire on his leftmost (his right) tac squad. Occupants of the raiders would put some fire on the bikes.

    The remaining turns would involve finishing off the priority targets (the ones that have over 24" range) and using the ravagers to clear off tac squads (and vets if they ever move into open). Once that is done, the next priority would be the dreads, once they where destroyed or immobilized (with ass cannon destroyed) I would just keep moving down the line. If at any point I was reduced to 2 or fewer scoring units I would move them over to the objective on my side of the table (keeping in mind that I have not gotten close then 18" to his side of the board so this should be easy). In the final turns I should be removing the last few pieces of mobile armor and sending in the dracite/archon squads to contest, maybe clear off (lysanders a beast) his objective, with their raiders parked near his objective in case the wyches can't hold it.

  9. #8
    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drunkspleen View Post
    Personally I would have put the objective further forward and towards the middle. The first is to encourage him to send troops towards it earlier than he had expected, This potentially allows me to engage them in melee in no mans land giving me some protection from shooting in the process of crossing the battlefield.
    This would be an excellent strategy when you think the opponent is going to go “gun-line” on you and you do not really want a war of attrition. I did have this happen once where the opponent put his objective directly opposite of mine. At first I thought this was a bad thing but he did exactly what you said except it was him that tried to catch me off guard. As predicted, he came right at me and we did meet in close combat in “no-mans land” in the first turn. He was a very aggressive marine player and thought he could go “toe-to-toe” with my wyches – not!

    The second is that I often find myself with 1 or 2 raiders left late in the game who got an early weapon destroyed and let their cargo out already, and while they can pick up warriors and zip them 24" away to claim an objective, by having the two objectives closer together, and especially by having them closer to where I'm fighting, I feel it gives me more freedom in which objective I can claim late in the game.
    I can relate to this as the freedom to instantly get a squad to the other objective (claiming or contesting) was not only un-predictable to my opponent but I didn’t realize myself until the 5th turn.

    As for the 5th turn grab using spare empty raiders – I work it now that I claim 1 or 2 of the easier objectives and use spare empty raiders to contest the enemy’s. I do not get a lot of opportunities to get a “troop” choice re-mounted as the procedure needs an extra turn to effect (you can’t go “flat-out” the turn you embark passengers).

    @ Gardeth

    Before I ask more questions where would you have put the objective? I am very curious as your strategy scares me and I am trying to get to grips with it. The "Too many Targets" strategy seems very risky to me when the opponent has first move and appears to be quite "shooty".

    I have had games where I am fighting a static marine list that is "dug-in" and going at him piece meal tore me apart so I think its valid. Do you use this strategy always? Even Kill-point?

    Later today I will post his first move. Although his movement was influenced by my deployment I think he would've made the same general advance.
    Last edited by KwiKwag; April 8th, 2009 at 17:19.
    "On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]

  10. #9
    Member Gardeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwiKwag View Post

    @ Gardeth

    Before I ask more questions where would you have put the objective? I am very curious as your strategy scares me and I am trying to get to grips with it. The "Too many Targets" strategy seems very risky to me when the opponent has first move and appears to be quite "shooty".

    I have had games where I am fighting a static marine list that is "dug-in" and going at him piece meal tore me apart so I think its valid. Do you use this strategy always? Even Kill-point?
    I would have put it in the center of my deployment zone about 6" from my table edge (that way its still hard for him to get to it, but I can be assured of having several raiders ready to swoop in and cap it at games end).

    And the "too many targets" is two fold. I have alot for him to shoot and when my turn comes I will have alot to shoot him with. And its not as risky as it seems. If you look at his list he really only has a few shots at me first turn due to night shields. He will get to shoot me with 2 krak missiles from the tac squads, maybe 1 lascannon from the pred, if he moves into the open, and a lascannon from the razorback. So 4 shots, 1 of which will miss, and unless he shoots the empty raider up front, I should be getting cover saves from the rest. So not that bad at all, and on my turn I can target those offending vehicles with a load of lances.

    And yes I almost always deploy in this fashion, and it tends to work most of the time, even in killpoints.

  11. #10
    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardeth View Post
    And yes I almost always deploy in this fashion, and it tends to work most of the time, even in killpoints.
    Okay, so I would think this would work for me in instances where I won first move. Would your tactic work even better if you got first move? I am still wary on the whole moving 2nd idea and will probably keep my tactics the way they are but if I had first move I think I could try the "too many targets" tactic out - hmmm...

    Alrighty, here is my setup which was the exact opposite of Gardeths:



    Ideas behind my setup:

    1. Limit the amount of "Scoring Units" to his guns on the first turn - wyches are allergic to vehicle explosions. Raiders are plenty fast to just enter the game from the board edge.

    2. He had no alternative units arriving later, everything was on the table.

    3. The Assault Marines, bike squad and the Landspeeder I figured were going to move forward so I was going to let him make the first move, react to it and neutrilize it then make a counter move that will make him react to me. This was how I played WWP back in 4th and I was very successful with it.

    4. Use the Raider Sqauds as fire support and to obscure the wyches entering the game. If need be, sacrifice a raider in "no-mans" land and use to help my units get across the board. Ideally I like my raiders floating so I can contest on the 5th turn but sometimes it isn't to be.

    5. Lure the Marines forward with only a partial amount of my list on the table - many times the opponent decides its safe to be aggressive and comes out of hiding. With this objective mission he is going to have to take my objective away unlike the other scenarios that do not necessarily make him physically come to you (because he needs to be 3" from the objective).


    After this I will post the rest of the battle.
    "On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]

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