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I just realized that people are still going back and forth, waiting for an errata, and I thought it would be nice if we summed up some of the remaining questions we have, that weren't answered by the official errata. Here's what I came up with:
1. Do deffrollas work against vehicles? In other words, when you perform a 'ram', which is listed as a special type of tank shock, does the deffrolla damage it in the same way it damages a normal unit it tank shocks?
(by the exact wording of the rules, the answer at this point is 'yes', but given the deffrollas relatively low cost, and the unlikeliness of a steam roller crushing a Land Raider in real life, many assume it was never meant to work this way)
2. What happens when a unit of tankbustas releases a squig bomb from inside a vehicle, and roll a 1? It definitely hits the vehicle, as that would be the closest vehicle to the unit of tankbustas, but what side does it hit?
(this is completely uncertain, although some say it's the side facing the enemy you were targeting, and others say it hits the back, just like the weirdboy/warp 'ead does when their powers backfire while inside a vehicle. Personally, I believe it's the latter option)
3. Some Ork characters/units, like Painboyz and Snikkrot, are upgraded characters within a unit (and not independent characters) that give special benefits to their unit. Do those benefits also extend to special characters attached to their unit? I've heard judges at tournaments say 'yes' either way. In other words, do painboyz confer FNP to characters attached, and can Snikkrot ambush the enemy if a character is attached?
(by the exact wording of the rules, I'd say 'no', because the rules don't specficially state that the benefits are conferred to characters attached to the unit)
4. If you call the waaaaaaugh after you've already run some Ork units, do the Ork units that already ran count as having fleet?
(this is tricky, because by the wording of the rules there is no difference between normal moves and fleet moves, and so the 'fleet' special rule doesn't really take effect until the assault phase. However, this doesn't seem right, because it would allow you to make all your runs first, and THEN decide if you wanted them to have fleet or not, and you'd also avoid the penalty for rolling a 1, so I assume the answer is no, that the only Orks that count as fleeting are the ones who ran AFTER you called the waaaaaugh)
5. Do zzzzzzap guns auto-hit? (see rant below for details)
6. When adding a character to a unit for an added cost, rather than as an independent character (Snikkrot, Zagstrukk, Badrukk, etc) do they count as a member of the unit in regards to minimum/maximum size? If the minimum is 5, could you have 4 + the character? If the maximum is 15, can you have 15 + the character?
Are there any other unanswered questions we need resolved? Am I mistaken about any of the above questions? What are your thoughts?
Last edited by mynameisgrax; April 26th, 2009 at 05:06. Reason: changed something
Ok I agree with you on almost all the calls, except the painboys special charecter. I think the Painboy would give your character FNP. The reson for this is he confers FNp to the unit he is apart of and when a character joins the unit he is effectively apart of it. While ambush requires the character to join the unit before the battle starts. I believe such as the character does not have infiltrate he can not. That would be the same situation has as a space marine charcter coming in with scouts on the flank. Ambush is a modeifdied form of infiltrate in all respect in my opinion.
In the case of nobs, a model is unique if he doesn't have the same upgrades as other models in the unit and every model with the same upgrades are bunched together. Lets's take a unit of 5 nobs making two nobs with pK, one with a bosspole, one with a WB, and one has BC. Every single nob would be unique and as such would have to take his armor saves by himself except the two with pk would be grouped together. Say for example on nob with pk also had EA they would take armor saves seperatly as well.
Those are my two cents.
Isn't That Just Peachey
Hey there, Grax.
These seem fairly simple questions, really. Here's my thoughts on this one:
1. Since when can you "Tank Shock" tanks? The Deff Rolla only applies to tank shocking, if memory serves.
2. Back armour. The Tankbusta is in the Trukk, technically, he is in base contact with it, so the bomb squig would practically be a CC attack. That's just an opinion, though. As a second opinion, who takes Tankbustaz?
3. As for Feel No Pain, the general opinion is that the Mad Dok confers Feel No Pain to the unit he's with, and if a Warboss, for example, joins the unit, he joins the unit, becoming part of it. On the other hand, the rulebook does drone on about IC's and unit abilities. Therefore, the rules state both yes and no, and, not only does the Codex overthrow the rulebook, but also, let me ask you this: Do you want da Boss to have Feel No Pain or not?! Besides, who's goin' to tell him he can't?
As for Snikrot, I'm quite sure ambush is an extension of the Infiltrate and Flank rules, meaning if a character joins them, they lose these abilities, just like Scouting etc. Verdict: Not a chance.
4. A Waaagh! must be called at the start of the Ork shooting phase, so if you've already ran some of da Boyz, you've missed your chance to call it, so you can't call it, full stop.
5. Common sense really, any model with different wargear is unique, and different from the rest of the unit (Talking about wound allocation, right?). Simple one, really .
So in conclusion, the errata's fine, I reckon, some things just need a little applied imagination.
And remember, if the rules say Yes and No, the anwer is always the favourable one. That's not playing the rules, it's using them.
"Show 'em the gunline, Boss"
Very interesting points, although if you look in the codex you'll find that it states you can call the waaaaaugh at any time during your own shooting phase. If it were just the beginning, it would be simpler. Since it can be called at any time, it's a little uncertain if units that have already run get fleet. In 4th edition, when the codex was written, there was no 'run' option, so this wasn't a problem. With the 5th edition rules, some clarification is needed.
Mad Doc Grotznik definitely confers his ability to the unit he's attached to, otherwise he wouldn't give it to anyone at all. The difference is that Snikkrot and Painboyz are upgraded members of units, so when they say they 'confer a power to their unit', it's a little unclear if they mean just the unit they're a part of, or attached independent characters as well. That's really the question.
Bomb squigs are not a close combat attack, they're a shooting attack. I agree that back armor makes the most sense, but as it stands, there is no official answer.
Yeah, I guess the 'unique characters in multiwound units' technique is as people play it. I just have to accept the cheesiness. Instead, I'll replace it with a new pressing question that came up just today:
Do zzzzzap guns auto-hit? We've covered this before, but a veteran player brought up a very interesting point. In the 5th edition 40k rulebook, they are listed as auto-hitting. Now, the rulebook states that the original codex has prescedence over any of the rules listed in the 40k rulebook, so if the main codex and 40k rulebook are in conflict, you go with the codex.
Here's the catch: they aren't in conflict. The codex does not say that zzzzzap guns DON'T auto hit. So the veteran player showed the listing in the 40k 5th edition rulebook, where zzzzap guns are listed as auto-hitting, and then asked his opponents to find anything in the Ork codex that contradicts that statement. They couldn't, so the judges agreed with him. It definitely seems wrong, but unless we can get errata that states the unit summary sheets in the 5th edition rulebook can not be used as reference material for any game, I can't find any fault with his logic.
Something that's puzzled me for a long time is some finer details involving special characters in a few of our units. I've put my thoughts in and how I think it works, but would really appreciate some outside input.
How do you handle characters like Snikrot, Zagstruk, and Badrukk in points and unit composition? Here are examples to clarify my question:
Example 1: say you take 9 Kommandos and Snikrot (meaning you have 10 models in the unit for both methods described):
Do you pay for the 9 Kommandos plus the cost it lists in the upgrades section for Snikrot?
-This method would be the base cost for a kommando times 9 plus the cost for Snikrot.
Do you pay for 10 Kommandos and THEN add the cost listed next to Snikrot in the upgrades?
-This method would be the base cost for a kommando times 10 plus the cost for Snikrot.
Example 2: say you take a maximum size unit with Zagstruk. The issue here is how many models are in that unit. Do I have 20 Stormboyz AND Zagstruk making a unit size of 21, or do I have 20 Stormboyz, one of which is Zagstruk, giving me a unit size of 20. This issue is slightly more complicated as this would rely on the answer to the above problem to determine the cost of the unit as well as dealing with how many models are even present. Here are the two lines of thinking my friends and I have stumbled across in dealing with this issue:
The unit size of any generic Stormboyz unit is said in the codex to be 5-20 so at first glance I assumed that a maximum size unit with Zagstruk would have a total unit size of 20 (that is 19 Stormboyz and Zagstruk). This line of thought seems to fit snugly in with the defined unit composition.
However, this is where I apply the first method from above to give a different result. In the above example using the first method I opted to NOT pay the base cost of a kommando when purchasing Snikrot as it doesn't list Snikrot as an upgrade like the nob is, but a different model entirely. Assuming this truly is how it works then it raises the issue of how the special character fits into unit composition. Technically, Zagstruk isn't a stormboy in the same sense a regular stormboy is and as such we aren't paying the base cost and then upgrading the model to be Zagstruk. Therefore, Zagstruk doesn't fit into the 5-20 unit size because that is what's used for the stormboyz being purchased. As a result, you could purchase 20 stormboyz and then add in Zagstruk giving you a unit size of 21.
For the first example, the line in the codex says that, 'A single Kommandos/Stormboyz/Flash Gitz mob may be led by Snikrot/Zagstruk/Badrukk.' Unlike the inclusion of a nob into the first two units all of these say that the unit is led by that character but says nothing about that character being an upgrade so you should not have to pay the base cost since it isn't an upgrade.
Second, as far as the unit size goes I based this more on the wording in the gretchin section. The gretchin units are allowed to have over 30 models in the unit because it specifically says 10-30 Gretchin and 1-3 Runtherd but the three units in question do not say anything like that, so I would assume the special character is added to the unit size and therefore cannot go over the limit described in the codex. NOTE: this also means you could reach the minimum size for the units using the special character (i.e. you could take 4 kommandos and Snikrot to reach their minimum of 5).
In summary, I would think you do not pay the base cost of a model to add in a special character but the addition of that special character cannot make the unit exceed their maximum size as described in the codex. Let me know what you guys think!
Last edited by Zatnugg; April 26th, 2009 at 04:56.
"Orks have to be followers of Nurgle! They're green, smell bad, and just want to spread the fun!"
I always took it as the entire cost of the model. It says +85 points to have the unit led by 'so and so'. That means that for the cost, you get to add that character to the unit. That follows the design of the new Marine codex at least, where characters are purchased for a listed cost, and are never an upgraded member of the unit. I could be wrong, but that's how I always took it.
Something I have been wondering is if these characters count as a member of the unit when establishing the unit's minimum and maximum size. Can you have 4 kommandos + Snikkrot? Can you have 15 kommandos + Snikkrot?
To answer the above questions I would assume that a painboy confers FnP to an IC joining a unit because the IC 'joined' the unit and the painboy confers this rule to his entire unit.
However, rules like Snikrot's ambush do not work in this way because his rule depends on a character being able to infiltrate/outflank. In theory, if the orks had an HQ that had the infiltrate special rule then that IC could join Snikrot's unit and gain the ambush benefit, but sadly, we do not.
This would also apply to stormboyz and their deep striking. If the orks had an HQ who could at least take a rokkit pack as an upgrade then they could, in theory, join the unit of stormboyz and enter play via deep strike, but again, we have no such HQ and therefore no HQ can join a unit with Zagstruk or even a generic unit of stormboyz held in reserve before the unit enters play and is on the board.
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That's really been my problem, grax. I'm pretty confident that you don't pay anything other than the 85 pts for the special character, but how he fits in with the unit size has me at a loss. I've heard good arguments either way and I'm not sure how to go about it for say a tournament list.
But it would have to be one or the other, you could either take 4 kommandos + snikrot, OR 15 kommandos + snikrot. We couldn't have both options at our disposal as the two rules would conflict eachother..
"Orks have to be followers of Nurgle! They're green, smell bad, and just want to spread the fun!"
Zzap cannonz auto-hit?! Somebody, fetch me my wallet!
To be fair, grax, I don't think they do. I was under the impression that once they hit, they automatically cause a "Crew Shaken" result providing they score a glancing or penetrating hit. It doesn't say anywhere in the codex that they do auto-hit, which I assume means they don't! Where in the rulebook do they have Zzap cannons down as auto-hitting, I'd like to check that one myself.
As for the Waaagh, you're right! I've always played at the start of, seen as otherwise, you could run, realise you're still out of assault range, and no squander your Waaagh!, which I often do. That definately needs looking into, as like you said, you could easily avoid all the wounds for rolling onez, although obviously, you could just take the hit after. Another thing worth checkin' up on: A couple games back, I had one surviving PK Nob from a unit of Slugga Boyz, I Waagh!'d, and rolled a one. :/ He had one wound left, so I took the wound, failed his save, and removed him, to be fair. But the fluff around the one is that the Boyz start scrappin', right? One remaining Nob killing himself instead of running and smashing up a Leman Russ, I was not amused. Would this still apply to units with one remaining model, do you reckon?
Buying Snikrot costs a solid 85 points, I'm sure of that. "One mob may be led by Boss Snikrot, 85 points." No plus 85 points, no upgrade a nob to Snikrot, just take him how he is, I guess. I'm also quite sure he counts towards the maximum number, and just to play it safe and avoid arguing with your opponent, do you really need that extra Kommando?
And I'm pretty sure that, unless a character has a specific deployment rule, such as deepstrike, infiltrate, scout and flank, he cannot deploy this way, even as part of that other unit, and if he joins a unit that can, whereas he cannot, he loses that ability (Check the 40k Rulebook on that one, I'm sure I've read that, and that applies to a handful of Universal Special Rules, not just deployment rules.
After all, da Boss'z ain't 'alf az sneaky az Snikrot, an' e' don't av' wingz neeva'.
"Show 'em the gunline, Boss"
Per the Zzap gun I think when last discussed we decided the Faq was the give away on that one.
The FAQ is answering about when the Str is rolled (before or after target selection) and the answer is (paraphrased slightly) After choosing the target but before ROLLING TO HIT.
As much as i would like those auto hits back...
But the FAQ is BEFORE 5th Edition came out!
Zzap guns auto-hit.