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Hello again Servants of the Star Gods!
This week I've decided two things. One I have finals, and I wanna get this out sooner rather than later so you get it a day earlier than usual! And two, it's time to take a switch from Unit tactics for a stint, and move to ANTI-unit tactics. For our first among this leg of the series I've decided to start with Terminators.
Now, there are very few units in 40K that boast a 2+ save, and terminators are the only one I can think of that not only take that save, but can have decent sized-squads. Each pattern is a bit different but really all are almost equally deadly, Imperial standard and assault teriminators, chaos terminators, and grey knight terminators are each equpied with the greatest bane to our forces, power weapons/fists. Lets run a short breakdown of all of those.
Imperial Terminators: Powerfist, storm bolter, the gun is a joke, the melee is NOT. Against most necron units even the "balanced" termies can cut through with sheer massed powerfist attacks, however they ARE the easiest to counter in the end. Keep in mind for this, they CAN field some nasty freaking heavy weapons, and are relentless. Tomb spyders, and Pariahs can all deny them their protection before they get a chance to strike back (save for the sergeant). Heavy Destroyers and massed-fire CAN also work for range(lets face it, anything with T<5 is mass fire-bait no matter the armorsave, it will work on all variants.)
Assault Terminators: Two equally nasty variants, one loads up on lightening claws, granting a third attack, and striking at initiative, I find these to be the second most threatening variant out there, to be engaged ONLY at range unless there is a C'tan around. Or there are the Thunder Hammer/storm shields, which the only decent answer to is our warscythe/C'tan, as their Invuln save protects them from our few armor-penetrating weapons.
Chaos Terminators: These guys are nasty, all equipped with power weapons to start, and it just gets worse from there, able to take hordes of combi-weapons, heavy flamers, powerfists, I'd say Chaos Termies rank second in the "bad news" category. Most squads CAN be stalled by a tomb spyder (WITH scarab before you charge, please) or fire, however with their keeping initiative makes Pariahs absolute bait for this variant. Again shooting is the preferred method of killing them.
Grey Knight Terminators: Alright, in my eyes, these guys are pretty much as bad as it can get. They're horribly expensive, but the massed number of S6 powerweapons means NOTHING in our army is safe, along with the addition of the psycannon, which minces C'tan rather handily by taking their save away, and Shrouding, which can keep us from picking them off from a safe distance, GKT are really just a brutal opponent for Necrons. OH YEAH and they have a large blast psychic power in CC (not terribly effective against anything but massed scarabs admittedly)
Personally I've faced Imperial, Chaos, and GK terminators, and find them all to be an absolute thorn. I've been able to generally put some wounds on them and the Imps and Chaos I killed off their squads. Another thing to keep in mind is they can deep strike, and if they do, it will take pretty much an entire army worth of shooting to keep them from charging you, leaving the rest of the army unscathed. Against IMP marines, Pariahs are a godsend, it took about 8 to finish the combat proper, but that warrscythe, combined with their leading-in gauss blasters, can tear up terminators like nobody's business. I can only imagine them being BETTER against storm shield assault marines personally. Someday I'll try a Wraithlord on them as well. My experiences with GK the opponent was thankfully too foolish to charge them in screaming, I'm sure if he had, they would have done FAR more damage than trying to shoot necron warriors to death with psycannons and stormbolters. And the chaos,....the chaos deepstruck in, combi-melta'd a destroy squad, and took an entire turn's rapid fire from two necron warrior squads and a lord (for the record, around 50 shots) to bring down to one man, which killed two warriors before dying to massed CC attacks, it...well..it scares me when a unit does that.
So folks, what's your take on these super-tough, super strong, pinnacles of mortal power?
In a small game i rapid fired with 20 warriors. 5 termies died, hard. My problem is when they take a landraider. But i think that i have figured out how to take them down. First, immobilise it with flayers, then strike it with disruption field scarabs. Sorrounding it. If you roll 40 dices, some of them have to become sixes. And the termies cannot get out of the land raider.
lightning claw termies are ideal for tieing up w scarabs. "There are too many of them".
Gkt's? Let's se how they handle the same points of tomb spyders, all with tiny worthless meat shields. Massed fire could work as well.
I don't have a lot of experience beyond theory, but here goes:
The main disadvantage to terminators is they are S-L-O-W. It's much easier to back away from them, firing the whole way (the ONLY way to take out those assault termies!).
If you have a monolith, use that particle whip. It's got a low enough AP to deny the regular armour save. Heavy destroyers work too.
I like the "block the land raider doors" bit, but that ties up a lot of models, and takes way too much finesse to pull off on purpose. Besides, I have yet to scratch one of those things, let alone immobilize it (frikkin' land raiders! *shakes fist*).
I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to hit them with a Tomb Spyder, but a C'tan could ruin their day, that's for sure.
You could also try massed cc, especially on "vanilla" SM or CSM termies. They can't sweeping advance, so even if you lose combat, you can escape.
Isn't the partice whip ap3? The termies have a 2+ armor save...
I've wrecked a land raider, it was in 4th tough. Immobilizing it isn't that hard, a squad of rapid firing warriors and a little luck should do.
The best thing against terminators are destroyer lords and c'tan. Destroyer lords best for points cost simply because they stand up to power fists, why? Because they don't get instant deathed by them. Against the ones without power fists your opponent is wounging on a 6. They are really good against anything but grey knight termies but the only thing to get rid of them are c'tan in combat. Preferably the deciever (I5).
Another thing is you forgot about another chaos varient called the obliterator. Basically termies that shoot you with big guns. However they do come in small numbers so their not that bad.
I vote Deceiver on this one. He eats through them with ease, and he still gets his 4+ Invulnerable save against their weapons, if they even get to hit and wound him.
Visseking, Tomb spyders CANNOT stand up to GKTs, they get more attacks, at equal strength, have an invulnerable save, and ignore the spyder's armor. Oh and they go first. You'd have to absolutely bog the squad in spyders for a hope of winning, really I think massed immortal/destroyer fire is the best way to take them down at this point.
shas_on_u I didn't include oblits because in fluff and in name they are not the same as terminators, though they have the same save, their threat is largely different, since they are walking heavy weapons that are super hard to kill. They'll someday be covered in a thread alongside broadside battlesuits.
I'd not thought about the Deceiver having I5 that definitely makes him a strong choice for fighting all variations.
Oh, three spyders abusing the articifier rule should have a good chance. The chance of hurting the scarabs are 0,33 percent per attack and with decent luck, three spyders should be able to crush 5 GKT's. If you are up against a squad of ten GKT's, go more spyders. Only problem might be to get into an epic combat between spyders and grey knights.
Last edited by visseking; May 10th, 2009 at 20:06. Reason: Forgot spyder ws
Oblits? I never mentioned them.
As for Spyders, how much do termies cost? Imagine a group of 10 CSM Termies with a Khorne Icon for 330 points, versus 6 Spyders, also 330. The spyders have, thanks to their generated scarabs, a grand total of 24-36 T6 wounds, and deal 18 I2 S6 attacks that ignore armor and 18 I2 S3 attacks, if the scarabs survive. The Termies have 30 I4 S4 attacks, and 10 wounds. Let's see how they fare in battle. I'll have no one assault, to make things simpler, and 1 of the Spyders will have lost a wound when it created his scarab:
Termies attack first. They hit on a 3+, so 20 attacks hit, then wound on a 6+, so they'll deal 3-4 wounds. That means they kill a Scarab swarm (yay!) and possibly wound another. Now it's the necron's turn to attack. 5 Scarabs remaining would hit hit on 4+ (isn't WS pretty useless?), 7-8 hit. They wound on a 5+, so 2-3 wound, then 2+ armor means they MIGHT, if lucky, kill a Termie. Let's say not, for the example's sake. Now the Spyder's turn: They hit on 4+, that's 9 hits, wound on 2+, 7-8 are wounds, and the Termies have to use their 5+ inv save, so 5 Termies would die on average. They are losing combat, roll with Ld-5 and are in deep trouble.
True enough Lemt, though that's only if they use their basic equipment, some are prone to adding power fists to their terminator squads, also you rarely see 10-mans of termies (around these parts at least). So while that was a nide bit of mathhammer it will seldom apply in-game. And chaos terminators are fearless.