Welcome to Librarium Online!
dude, why are people bagging on gaurdians, i use guardians all the time in my army and there far from useless in fact sometimes they even perform better than my dire avengers.
here are their advantages over dire avengers.
1. they are cheaper
2. they have the option of taking a heavy weapon
3. when holding an objective in cover they have the same survivibility rate as dire avengers.
1. worse WS, BS, LD, SV, I, and less range on their guns.
i am not saying that gaurdians are better than dire avengers (because i also run them in my army too,) i am just saying that they are not useless and have a purpose like every other unit in an eldar army( sitting on objectives so that your dire avengers can do something else). if anyone disagrees with me then please feel free to enlighten me on the subject.
They are expensive for what you get. They have a painfully short range weapon. Their heavy weapons are overpriced, and they seem to constantly run off the board if they don't have a warlock with them. I've had nothing but bad luck with guardians so I stick to Dire Avengers.
While it's true Dire Avengers are 50% more expensive than guardians, they're often twice as good, some of the following is why people just don't use guardians.
1. As someone else mentioned, painfully short range. 12" guns means you are going to get crushed in assault next turn by whatever you're shooting at.
2. BS3, WS3, I4. For assault (although you can use an Enhance Warlock) it doesn't have the Eldar advantage of usually being able to go first in assault, plus they're meh at shooting.
3. 5+Save, absolutely useless against standard infantry weapons, disregarding lasguns. Guardians get cut down faster than grass under a lawnmower.
3b. Even though there is an abundance of cover, there are plenty of weapons that negate it. Weapons that conveniently enough have a good enough AP value to pierce crappy Guardian armor (Standard flamers, Incendiary Castellan missiles, etc.) Plus what are the chances that there is cover in the tiny 12" space between you and what you're shooting at?
4. Expensive weapon choices: Even though the Shuriken Cannon is practically free, giving them any sort of flexibility in the anti-tank department requires giving a 20pt EML or 30pt Brightlance to a BS3 firer, and is more or less crap.
5. Warlocks are expensive, To give them that 5+ Conceal save (which still won't save you from a flamer) it will cost you 40 points, that effectively brings the cost of those little Guardians up to 120pts for a squad of 10. A squad of 10 Dire Avengers costs 120 points!
Avengers not only enjoy a 4+ save, but decent ballistic and weapon skill levels, not to mention being I5 means they can hit most things before they get hit back in CC. You get a 50% range boost right off the bat and the Exarch opens up whole new possibilities. I run mine in a transport somewhat like the Tau Fish of Fury, except with a bladestorming exarch you can take 33 shots at 18", with a much higher hit rate.
As far as a point guard goes, Guardians are still guardians, and the minimum squad cost is 85 (10GU + shuriken cannon), Dire Avengers have a minimum size of 5, you could use them as a 60pt point guard or take Rangers instead, who might be able to shoot something while they're sitting on your home objective.
Last edited by Arkanor; May 17th, 2009 at 09:17.
1. Yes, they are cheaper, but they are still too expensive for what they are. What they are essentially is just Eldar Guardsmen, more or less - when you think about it, the stat line is the same except from I and LD, they have the same save, their weapons are stronger but have half the range - IMO they're only worth 6 or 7 points each.
2. If you need to take a heavy weapon in a Guardian Squad, you should be revising what you have in the rest of your army because there obviously isn't enough heavy weapons elsewhere. The Guardian heavy weapons have only BS3, leave heavy weapons to the likes of Dark Reapers, Fire Prisms, Falcons and all the other things that have BS4 and heavy weapons (nothing as far as I'm aware). I can understand taking maybe a shuriken cannon or a scatter laser, but anything more and it's just a waste of points.
I just don't understand why people use Guardians in battles when we have Dire Avengers and Rangers which are SO much better. The 180-odd points you spend on a 20-man guardian squad with a heavy weapon could be spent on a unit of Banshees or Warp Spiders or better still a Fire Prism (and then you'd have a fair few points left over anyway).
And quite apart from all this, Guardians are only really true to fluff in Ulthwe armies and similar craftworlds that have to expend civilians because their main forces don't suffice. In other craftworlds, they don't really fit with the Eldar theme of not being able to afford to just send waves of cannon fodder at the enemy (which is essentially what Guardians are) because the Eldar are 'The Dying' and every Eldar 'is a hero whose loss is keenly felt' or whatever it is.
Sweet we get to to round and round on the guardians again. First things first I play Ulthwe. I have run and won with lists that don't have a single aspect warrior in them (I win more than I loose with such lists), that means I had nothing but the guardians that people always say are useless. Yes they are BS 3 but guess what we have a great little power that lets us reroll, hitting with 75% of the shots is really very good. If you can get a large storm squad with enhance to attack a target they throw more attacks then harlies or scorpions, the lower strength does mean that overall the amount of damage done is about the same. The defenders in a large squad can fire more shots ( and every round ) than blade storming DAs. They are one of the few squads that can get flamers (very useful with all the cover out there now days) The addition of the warlock makes the unit a threat to any AV in the game (heavy weapons for defenders can make them a threat at range). How many of our troops can say they can kill even AV 11 (and 10 is a glance fest for most of them)? If the guardian is on a bike they have a possible 24" movement without having to sit inside a transport they can move a total of 18" in a round and even get to shoot during that. If guardians are not for you that is fine but the fact remains that they can and do work.
I do feel that in light of the new orc and IG codex they are a bit over priced but only by a point maybe two and even with that they can still be extremely effective.
Lastly the guardians are cannon fodder if you choose to make them fodder. With Ulthwe they are the core of my infantry killing firepower and more valuble than my waveserpents, vypers, walkers, fireprisms, and any aspect that I am running for the game.
Last edited by nakaruru; May 17th, 2009 at 14:21.
I must say, Guardians' guns can really chew up enemy infantry when within range. It just always bothers me that the range is so short, and as it was said, that means you are within assault range of your target for next turn. If I take them, it is usually just to fulfill my force organization troop choices as cheaply as I can so that I can take more aspect warriors or tanks.
What I do like them for over rangers is holding objectives closer to the enemy, say in the center of the board. While rangers are good at holding objectives in your own deployment zone, having them closer to your enemy makes them easier to assault, which I know from experience they are horrible at. Plus, if you try and retreat your rangers, they can't shoot because their guns are Heavy weapons. Guardians aren't great in assault either but you get way more shots on a squad that tries to come at you. Furthermore, you can get twice the number of Guardians as Rangers for the same price. If I am going to have to lose something, I would rather lose the cheapest models I can.
In Guardians' defense I once had a squad of ten with a missile launcher behind a piece of cover and was charged by 30 Ork Boyz and a Warboss. By the time they were assaulted they had taken out about half of the Boyz and had reduced the Warboss to 1 wound. They died quickly in assault but they did some damage. Although I guess in that case I still lost more points then them.
Last edited by Elendor; May 17th, 2009 at 16:47.
"you could use them as a 60pt point guard or take Rangers instead, who might be able to shoot something while they're sitting on your home objective." - Arkanor
sorry i dont know how to quote. anyway taking low squads of anything gives the enemy easy kill points and the low number count makes it hard to regroup if you fail a morale check, the guardians need to lose 7 men before they cant regroup 5 rangers and 5 man dire avenger squads need to lose only three. also at this point guardians would also be more effective shooters than the dire avengers having double the shots. oh and also i agree that it is a waste to give them a brightlance or missle launcher thats why to compensate for their low BS you give them either a shurken cannon or a scatter lazer they are both reletively cheap and have a high number of shots and decent range.
Personally, I think Guardian Defenders are not worth it for the points you spend, they're too ineffective in the threat range they're at (12" to assault). As for Dire Avengers as 5 man squads, these are usually employed as a vehicle upgrade to a Falcon to make it scoring, thusly named the DAVU (Dire Avengers as a Vehicle Upgrade) Falcon. Storm Guardians on the other hand are far from useless (usually in a Wave Serpent). They can nail non-MEQ in cover quite well with 3 flamers and 8 pistol shots, and the amount of hits they can generate with the flamers if positioned well can mean a whole lot of pain for the opponent as flamers bypass their awful BS of 3. In addition, they're troops so they can score as well.
Scratchbuilding Fire Prism Crystals
2K Mech Eldar in 2010: 25Win/4Lose/8Draw
Guardians aren't terrible, they are just eclipsed in a big way by Dire Avengers for most tasks.
Really, guardians are most usefull in a static gunline, something not a lot of eldar players take as an army.
I much prefer my DA's, all snuggled up in wave serpents, blade storming the crap out of my opponents! XD
Got a "good" rumour from a GW staffer? Forget about it, LO'ers know more than any random GW shop staffer.
Voor alle nederlanders:
The Dutch Legion
I have something against them because every time I've used them I've been sorely disappointed, they don't survive long enough to shoot more than once before they get nailed to the wall in assault or shot to pieces (although I did have an interesting experience where they charged into a half-strength terminator squad and killed them all before their power fists could retaliate)
1. After that charge bonus wears off, Scorpions are still throwing 3 attacks per model, at WS4, S4.
2. Scorpions will likely survive the first hitback, with their 3+ saves.
3. A scorp squad of 10 will fit in a transport, a Guardian squad of 20 will not.
Harlies don't even compare, Shadowseer gives them nigh-invulnerability on the approach, they strike at ridiculous iniative and benefit from Furious Charge (S4 attacks on the charge.) With the possiblity to carry Rending weapons, they're dangerous to anything, and priced far higher than Guardians, a different unit for a different purpose.
Even then, I wasn't slamming the Stormies, I might try them sometimes, my big issue with the guardians is the lackluster BS with poor range and save, it becomes much less of an issue in close combat (especially with an enhance warlock.)
Large guardian defender squads rarely make back their points, they become a juicy target and will get shot to bits before they close to range. As defenders against horde armies they might be useful, but they're only going to live long enough to get one volley off. The 10 man DA squad has the flexibility to use a transport, and will still rip Guardians apart before they get in range to return fire.
Also, since you don't need to hold objectives in annhiliation games, the problem with your rear-area point guard being an easy kill point is a nonissue.
Last edited by Arkanor; May 18th, 2009 at 08:46.