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flipping through the new marine codex, i saw how storm shields have been nerfed, it's dodgy as hell, 3+ invulnerable to shooting and combat, how can we beat that? any one got some ideas? if avoiding them isnt an option
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Well being a marine player, i would say use howling banishees with doom, would prolly work. key is to make them roll those saves to fail them.
10 banishee's with doom, is what around 30 attacks on the charge with rerolling wounds... All around death, since they have thunderhammers you are bound to kill a few before they can attack you back.
It's only a nerf if they've been made worse - otherwise, it's a buff
Weight of fire (or CC attacks as Cenedar says) - something like a full squad of Dire Avengers or two firing all out. TH+SS termies are 40+ points apiece, so you should be able to get lots of troops to take them out.
D-Cannons hurt, they're AP2 right? A battery of those should do the job, especially when combined with Guide.
1) Dont engage them
2) Mass fire. Why waste points on any kind of armor pen if they have a 3++ save? Just mass fire from dire avengers, war walkers, guardian defenders, storm guardians, fire prism, double wraithlord flamer, etc. Ive said in another thread, there is nothing in the eldar army that point for point can take a squad of cc termies, dont even try.
The Hand that guides.
10 Banshees with Exarch (Executioner) fighting a Doomed target
27 attacks - 14 hits, exarch gets 3 attacks, 2 hit.
Banshees inflict ~7 wounds, Exarch should score her 2.
9 saves on 3+, 6 pass, 3 are dead. Not too bad. If it was a 5 man squad you only need to worry about 2 of your 'Shees dying. If it was a 10 man, well you probably just lost your shees.
Some special characters can screw this up immensely though, I fight Vul'kan a lot (and I think he's a pretty popular guy,) all those thunderhammers get master-crafted, and he gets to hit 3 times with a master-crafted relic blade at WS6.
In that possibility, a land-raider sized squad (5+IC) is going to hit you 6 times, and kill 5-6 of your banshees straight up after your attacks go through. From then your chances are significantly reduced and you risk getting swept in the first round of combat.
If they're not on foot, try to get them on foot as soon as possible. That will buy you time to do more important things.
2. I agree here too, put enough wounds on em and they'll fail twos. If you have some AP weaponry and have nothing else to shoot at, add it to the mix.
As the Orks always say "More Dakka!" (aka lots of War Walkers/Dire Avengers/shooty unit of choice)
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Like everyone says, the most efficeint option is small arms fire. I have both a 1500 Salamander force and about 2500 - 3000 Eldar Army, and let me tell you 5 TH|SS Terminators die quicker than they should...dire avengers (my own, were used against me) just riddled them with bladestorm and i rolled a bazzilion one's. Really annoying, they also dont handle nobs that well with all those attacks either.
Really, best option is to just ignore them. They're slow and don't have any sort of ranged firepower. Perhaps the only time where you may want to keep an eye out is if they are with Captain Shrike and have fleet of foot. They should never catch you if you're playing right.
But if you're ABSOLUTELY convinced you NEED to kill them,massed small arms fire is the way to go. Lots of saves is the only real answer to those high invulns. Come to think of it, turning some scatterlasers onto them may be a good idea too, if there are no other immediate targets *muse*.
Mass fire works for anything, terminators will fail 1 out of 6 saves so only need 60 wounds on average to make sure they are dead assuming a full squad. I've piled that on a termie squad with flamers, destructors, shurikens, and a mass charge. And as most have said they are extremely expensive for the cost of the unit we can get enough shooting to kill them in 1 or 2 rounds. The group in a land raider is a bit scary as we have to kill the land raider before we can start shooting up the termies.
Why ignore them when you can save spam them out of existence?
Termies are incredibly expensive, whack doom on them and pour on the shots, catapults scatter lasers, deathspinners and even lasblasters/sun rifles.
Weight of fire is what will drive these boys off. A decent sized squad with a character can easily weigh in at a quarter of his army and lets not forget the psychological advantage gained if you can put the entire squad down in one phase.
Hell worst case a squad of avengers with Power/Shimmer/defend combo will trap them in combat forever if they don't have a character as they roll their piddly one attack each...
I'd argue your point for point analysis though burning, anything that can fire and still end up more than 12-18" away (depending on shrike) will beat TH/SS termies because the termies will never catch them as they give ground and chip away.
"ask not the Eldar a question, for he will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know"