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So I have this new idea, or maybe an idea someone else might have had. That Gun drone, due to the fact that they have pulse carbines, twin linked, have photon grenades, and therefore can kill an attack bonus on the charge of the Close Combat phase of the enemy's turn. And here is my supporting list of items.
1.Pg 29 of the codex says the pulse carbine gets an underslung photon grenade launcher.
2. Gun Drones get twin-linked pulse carbines as standard equipment.
3. Pg 36 & 38 of the codex state that Firewarriors & Pathfinders must pay to take grenades, but says nothing about the gun drones or even gun drone squadrons having to pay for them.
4. Because of this there is no cost or restriction placed on the gun drones. And if it doesn't exclude them, there is nothing that says you can't equip them with, or them already having them because of their weapon choice.
5. On pg 25 of the codex it explains that any suit, can/must select stuff from the list accumulated for suits, ei. Battlesuit Weapons, Battlesuit Support Systems, Battlesuit wargear.
6. Though the drones themselves can be counted as wargear, there is no rule stating that the wargear cannot be equipped with grenades.
7. 5th edition rules have become much more streamlined, thus making games go faster, but this also allows for more creativity when applying what the rules say, and what they do not say.
The other side of the argument:
1 It does say that any unsaved wound from a pulse carbine makes the enemy have to take a pinning test. however it is unclear as to what about that weapon cause the pinning test to take place, the carbine or the photon grenade launcher.
Please keep in mind that this is a creative process of trying to give the Tau a better advantage in battle. I would love to hear CONSTRUCTIVE criticism either for or against this thought. Leave the lynches at home, mob, in other words.
The rule book states,
"The pulse carbine sacrifices range and for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher."
I have to look at the spot it says for the chance to. It does not state it does give you one.
Under the fire warrior listing it says you can choose between pulse carbine or pulse rifle. After that it says you can upgrade to photons. Nowhere there does it say that if you opt for the carbine do you get the photons for free.
Also, under the pathfinder section it says you can upgrade your pathfinders to have photons for 1 additional point per model. Seeing as they come with pulse carbines, I would say that photons are not standard with pulse carbines.
Although it would be nice.
As for gun drones coming standard with them, I would say no. I feel that even if you could postulate that carbines come standard with them ( I do not see any evidence to support this) that if the photons were indeed a part of the carbines, it would state that they had the photons in both the war gear side panel for drones or in the gun drone squadron listing.
I see where you got the original idea but I am not able to find a ruling anywhere in the Tau Codex to support your argument. Like I said, great idea and would love it to be in fact possible as adding gun drones would be more attractive as they could provide some protection from being charged.
Last edited by haddatt; May 23rd, 2009 at 15:17.
- Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Nice try but its far to much hear say to actually be considered
Although all your facts behind it are true but the point is its not stated and if GW did want Gun Drones to have photon grenades then they would have given them photon grenades in the codex or in an FAQ
I understand that there is nothing in direct support of the idea, and for some they either don't see the benefit of looking at what is or is not said. Again I would like to point to the codex saying that the FW & the PF have to by them. The same could be said for Kroot; since their models come with what look like grenades. It does not say one way or the other if they get grenades.
We all know that GW would like stuff to be a certain way, but I have a hard time siding with going with what is the norm or generally excepted. The empire codex IMO is a lazy rendition of the Tau special rules.
There might not be anything that directly supports the idea of drones or Kroot taking grenades, but the flip side of the coin is that there is nothing in the codex that directly supports the idea that they cannot.
So should we have to play at a less than superb setup because GW failed to properly describe what each unit or piece of wargear can do?
Again it does not say you cannot, MO is that because it is outside the box yes, and it is grey area yes, you should be able to define the grey area as you see fit; as long as it does violate the BRB or the codex of your army.
So far in this discussion it has not been legitimately proven nor dissproven. But I appreciate the feedback so far.
---------- Post added at 13:23 ---------- Previous post was at 13:19 ----------Was supposed to say" does not violate", sorry got typing too fastMO is that because it is outside the box yes, and it is grey area yes, you should be able to define the grey area as you see fit; as long as it does violate the BRB or the codex of your army.
The rules state that Pulse Carbines have 'the chance' to mount a photon grenade launcher, that is FLUFF it is not a rule, note the stats for the weapon, they are the rules, there are no stats for the launching of Grenades only the stat for the shooting attack and pinning. If a unit wants to take grenades they pay for them, Gun Drones do not have the choice in 'their rules'.
There is something that supports the idea that Kroot cannot take Grenades, the fact that their rule set does not say they can. They not have the choice to select grenades. Also the rules are not dictated by what comes on the sprue, Kroot come with pieces of meat on their sprue so they must have a rule to beat opponents around the head and groin area with D6 attacks.
Ok the game may have some less than clear rules but the important word there is 'rules' Gun Drones and Kroot do not have any rule that allows them to take Grenades (either launched form a pulse carbine or thrown).
You are not talking about a grey area you are talking about the ridiculous concept that because GW do not explicitly say you cannot do something or take something then you are allowed to take it. Why not just go the whole hog and just not use the rules or codex and just make the thing up as you go along.
Pulse carbines having underslug grenade launchers, is "fluff" in the weapons description and not a codex rule. The simple fact, that this weapon "pins", could be this so-called grenade launcher in action.
If you want to use your version, in "friendly" games, though you will have trouble pulling it off at toureys.
Wow Riki, that was really dripping with distain.
I would like to take a moment and point out that I was asking for CONSTRUCTIVE critiques and criticisms, either for or against the idea I had. I did ask for disdain, rebuke, heavy doses of sarcasm, or other such negative undercurrents. I would suggest to all others who read this thread and wish to post a reply, to take an example from the first 2 responders to the post. They did so in a friendly, open manner, and with tact; but still did not give up their objectiveness in casting their opinion and statements of what they have come across, or read.
Now on to my return comments.
Riki, if you would please try reeling in how you address people, I think you would find a much more pleasing result if you did. The idea was posted here in the forum to discuss it as a possible option if it does not go against any rules. Were not cheating here, we are discussing how best to define a gray area.
One of my points was because there is no clear cut rule saying they can or cannot, it could be a possible option; so here we are discussing it as a possible option.Dude 40K is a 'game'. Funnily enough it has rules because it is a 'game' and you cannot just say that GunDrones have grenades because GW did not say explicitly that they do not have them. I may as well say that my Shas'O is a Monstrous creature because GW do not explicitly say it is not a Monstrous creature.
Thankfully the Tau Empire Codex is much more clear on Suits than it is on drones, so there is a far smaller corridor of creativity that can be brought to bear and used on Suits.Ok the game may have some less than clear rules but the important word there is 'rules' Gun Drones and Kroot do not have any rule that allows them to take Grenades (either launched form a pulse carbine or thrown).
This is true, there is no rule saying they can, but there also is no rule saying they can’t. So if they have no rules saying they can or cannot, would it not then be plausible that because of the weapons description, that drones could possibly have grenades equipped? I say yes.
One of the other posters in this Tau forum has a signature that I thought was excellent,it says something like this" Unless you are in a tournament, the only rules you have to play by are those you and your opponent agree to."
So even if the weakest part of the discussion side for GD being able to have photon grenades in their launchers, it would still be a possible thing to use unless in tournament right?Creativity is fine, however what you are proposing is something called cheating.
Thomas Edison wrote ”Imagination is more important than facts”, Napolean Bonapart (I think the spelling of that might be off) said “The human race is governed by its imagination”, and Winston Churchill said ”The greatest crisis in our lives is a crisis of imagination. We get stuck, and we bind ourselves to the wheel of repetition, because we refuse to reimagine our situation. We live with a set of negative or confining images and pronounce them "reality." We do this because we let ourselves get trapped in a particular version of the past or in a consensual hallucination. We do it to cling to the familiar, not daring to give up what we are or have been for what we are meant to become.”. Thankfully most of us can just appreciate a game for it’s fun creative value. But what if lets say the NBA doesn’t have a rule saying you can put in 3 centers and 2 guards. Does that mean a NBA team couldn’t do that if they wanted to, despite no one ever having written down whether it was an applicable rule or not. Riki’s statement IMO seemes to be very rigid toward the application of creativity. My hope is that I am wrong in this Riki.
The thought of GD having photon grenades, because their weapons have the "chance" underslung photon grenade launcher; is not a very big jump of imagination. In fact it is a very small one, and given the fact that there is gray area around the issue, I think it can be placed very far from cheating.
EVERYONE- Please notice that I am not proposing giving drones EMP, just the photons because of the weapon description.note the stats for the weapon, they are the rules, there are no stats for the launching of Grenades only the stat for the shooting attack and pinning. If a unit wants to take grenades they pay for them,
Neither is there stats for the Photon grenades (just a description of what they are) except in the BRB where it is describing the effect of grenades on vehicles in close combat.
Now some of Riki’s comments are most useful to this post. But I am still of the opinion that it is possible for the GD to have them. At the very least it should be something for GW to consider for the next codex. Seeing how the PC forces troops to get in much closer to enemies than any good Tau should.
I am still very much for the idea, since indefacto the area of the pulse carbine is gray regarding this idea.
---------- Post added at 214 ---------- Previous post was at 210 ----------
Nice Maleopener! Ultimately I think it will come down to whether my opponents wish to let me use that version ruling, as well. Basically what you said.
sorry if im draging this down but the reason why the carbine has pinning is because when they fire they also fire there photon nades to disorintat (sp) the target, picture it suddrenly you come under fire and all you can see is flashes once they subside 3 of your mates are dead i duno about you but that would make me wanna keep my head down, just a obsvation i made for fluffs sake (flame sheilds up)
The first two posts basically say that you cannot do what you stated but you still persisted in saying that they had not shown you cannot do it. I felt it needed more detail and example to illustrate why you cannot do what you put forward. Forgive me if using a bit of humour, examples and lots of detail is disdainful. I cannot help how you perceive me. I would respond by simply saying "why---so---serious"
My (insert army) codex here does not say my (insert unit) cannot use/equip/take (insert weapon/ability/vehicle etc), so I must be able to take said weapon etc.
For instance you used the argument that because Kroot have Grenades as a modelling option then surely they should be allowed to take grenades, my point is this "where does it end".
I for one would say this, if the rules state you can take a weapon then you can take it. If the weapon has a stat line for a grenade launcher then you can take it, if it doesn't then no you cannot.
You did not make it clear that you meant just friendly games. Many new people come on here looking for rules clarifications and would think that you meant this could be used in tournies etc where it would get laughed of the field. If constructively and comprehensively criticised your idea which is what you asked for.
For instance it can be argued that controlled Drones are wargear and are not counted as part of the unit, so shoot at the same target their controller fires at if he uses a target lock and not the same target as the rest of its unit. This is a grey area because the rules are unclear and it does not particularly benefit the Tau player either way.
However in your example the rules are not unclear, no stat line exists for an under slung Photon Grenade launcher, no points value exists for it, it is not a selectable option anywhere in the Tau codex. It does not exist except in a small fluff paragraph. To give Gun Drone grenade launchers would give them an advantage never intended by the designers of the game and thus would not be within the spirit of the game.
Also both EMP and Photons have a points cost.
Sorry if you find that disdainful but I have a right to my opinion as well.
Edit: Oh and by the way large text can be construed as shouting, disdainful etc. Just an observation as your text size doubled from your first posts.
Last edited by Rikimaru; May 24th, 2009 at 12:50.
But I think this just comes down to personal imagination. Like there is a sound I hear in my head when I fire my missile pods at armor and it hits. It always sound like the law rockets in Battlefield 1942 or the modern warfare one.
Anyway, on to using mods in friendly games. Me and my friends have certainly done so just to try things out and to see how balanced our ideas are.
- Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.