Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Ok after a discussion on another website that shall remain nameless (many will know who it is but this IS NOT meant as a way to attack the site, so please do not do so), something was mentioned which I found very interesting. Basically I posted my 2000pt list (linked here http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...-comers-2.html
Amongst the replies there was an overriding point raised 'my list would struggle against mech type lists'. Mech being defined there as a vehicle based list with troops ensconced in vehicles and lots of tanks.
Now this post is not meant as a Riki your list is Ok thread, I like my list as it stands and it does well against most armies and I can stand up in defence of it for myself.
What I want to know is just what you Tau players out there consider an acceptable level of anti armour in a Tau list. We have the new IG codex which will obviously (at least in the short term) result in lots of vehicle heavy lists and also (my personnel opinion) troops in Chimeras, given the importance of objective holding and claiming in 5th.
I think the troops in vehicles will persist but the massed vehicle lists will die a death (squadron rules have many disadvantages).
So the basic idea on the other website is that for a list to be competitive it needs to be built to deal primarily with Mech lists. I absolutley do not think this is correct or even sensible because we do not face Mech 100% of the time, we face many variation of army.
It is interesting to note that the commentators on the other site did not actually class my list as Mech. They seemed to think Mech tau has to be all vehicle (with Troops in vehicles)
I disagree Mech Tau is vehicle based but it refers to a list in which the majority of units can move 12" a turn has a high predominance of infantry in vehicles, Tanks and Battlesuits. My list has three units on foot (Pathfinders have to be on foot and Kroot). My list has 5 vehicles and 5 Battlesuit units, FW are transported in Devilfish so I think it is pretty much standard Mech Tau. What do you players consider Mech in Tau lists and in other armies?
I think we need to establish just what we mean by “dealing with Mech”.
Well I think we can all agree that vehicles are the overriding theme of Mech armies, so lets start there.
Dealing with vehicles is something that means different things to different players. I for instance am not bothered if I destroy a Transport vehicle outright, I am just as happy to immobilise a transport because if it is not moving it is basically useless. I am also not bothered if I destroy a Tank; if I stop it shooting then again I have come out on top. Do not get me wrong if I pop a vehicle then brilliant but destroying them is not actually that important.
Next we need to establish something else 'armour values' for some reason whenever anti armour/mech is mentioned it is immediately assumed we need many many Railguns, why? The average AV value of vehicles in 40K is AV12, AV14 all round is quite rare and most vehicles will have lower AV on side and rear armour. Against most vehicles STR7 or 8 weapons are effective and accurate shot volume is a lot more desirable than having one STR9 or 10 shot.
Next comes the questions, what are we dealing with in most Mech lists? Most Mech lists will have transports (usually two or three) and two or three vehicles in the heavy slots and in some lists, vehicles in the fast attack slots. Most of the list will be protected or at the very least will have speed to enable them to close on opponents fast. Some lists have the option to take squadrons and these tend to be low AV models.
However let us be realistic here, most lists will not have every unit in vehicles nor will all the units be fast or have vehicle equivalent speed. It is also simply not cost effective to spend a big chunk of the available points on massed vehicles.
Most lists will have offensive vehicles (tanks, speeders etc) and transport vehicles (usually two or three) and the rest of the list will be made up of assorted non-vehicle units (by non-vehicle I mean non AV models which includes Bikes, Jetbikes etc which I suppose can be classed as vehicles but have a TGH value)
Another thing to consider is most transports actually transport something namely troops. Loading up on Railguns (XV88 variant) and XV8’s (more than 2 units of 3 XV8’s) can be counter-productive. Killing the transports results in a lot of troops on the ground and investing to much in anti armour often means the list is lacking in the means to stop units of infantry effectively because the XV8’s are not anti infantry and XV88’s are geared solely to anti armour.
Cover saves are also another thing worth considering. Vehicles now have cover saves in exactly the same manner as infantry. STR10 and AP1 mean nothing when saved by a 4+ cover save, however 3 STR7 Deathrain shots can get past a cover save due to sheer volume.
The other thing is getting rid of or lowering cover saves, only when you have a game where your opponent saves 5 or 6 hits you scored against that Basilisk do you realise how much of a benefit having the ability to remove cover saves is.
The only way to remove cover saves is by utilising Markerlights. Taking ML’s costs points but having them is worth the investment. Dropping a cover save by one or two can make all the difference.
The other benefit of Markerlights is they can be used to up the BS of a unit. A Hammerhead firing at BS5 and the lowering of a cover save on the target can make all the difference stopping that transport or tank.
Next we come to Railguns. If we believe the Mech horror stories we should be taking nothing but XV88’s because they are more efficient at taking down armour. Sounds sensible but like I said earlier what happens when the vehicles are gone? The XV88 only has one shot, so even 9 will only kill 9 models at maximum. The Hammerhead on the other hand has the submunnition, which excels at killing groups of infantry. However the Subs do scatter and to get the best out of it you need to reduce any scatter, how do we do this? Yep Markerlights (did I mention they help the solid shot hit as well)
While we are on the subject of Markerlights we come to the other stuff in Mech lists like Bikes, Speeders, Jetbikes and things like Sentinals and Deffdreads, Trukks, Deffkoptas, Raiders etc all of which can be easily taken down by STR5 weaponry. Markerlights can give you 24 BS4 shots from that Fire Warrior squad which can take down a squadron of sentinels or take a unit of Bikers down a peg or two much better than a Railgun. All units with STR5 and above weapons can benefit from Markerlight help and this should not be underestimated.
My point is that we need to look beyond the obvious, many players do not see how much ML's contribute to taking armour down or how they can make the humble Pulse rifle a deadly armour killer. They also do not understand the concept of unit synergy and how using units working in concert can actually make an apparantly less efficient unit better (Hammerheads and Skyray working together can make a HH nearly as accurate as an XV88 for instance).
Also worth considering is the missions in 5th. Two thirds of these missions rely on taking objectives with infantry. If you can kill the opponent’s infantry (while keeping yours alive) you win.
So taking the above in to account what is the balance. My list for instance has 2 Hammerheads, a unit of TA Deathrains with target lock, a Skyray, a Shas’El with BS5 missile pod, a Shas’O with Fusion blaster and 5 Markerlight units that can hit 6 units per turn. It can lay down 4 MP shots at BS4 twin linked and 2 at BS5, two minimum BS4 Railgun shots and Seeker missiles. These Markerlights can reduce cover saves and up BS and the list can hit six vehicles a turn. Hardly bad but I can also deal with infantry, bikes, speeders etc with equal efficiency.
Now this is my list and I find it very effective but I am not saying mine is the way to go, far from it. I have simply used mine as an example to show how armour and transports can be handled in a less obvious way than simply using Railgun spam.
What I am wondering is do other players (especially the experienced players) find Mech type lists a problem and how much of their list do they dedicate to dealing with Mech.
I simply think that there are to many armies out there that do not and/or cannot go full Mech and tailoring lists to handle Mech themed armies leaves the list open to failure when facing hoard type lists (IG troop heavy, Tyranids, Orks etc) or more balanced type armies (Eldar variations, DE, Necrons etc). What is the balance of opponents faced by you people?
Dismissing a list simply because it 'appears' (I use that word 'appears' intentionally) to be lacking in the ability to deal with one army type seems silly to me and lacking in tactical insight.
Do you deal with vehicles simply by piling on the railguns or do you use other means.
I like to use a Deepstriking Sunforge squad with a positioning relay, (soon to be reduced to a Monat, with the inclusion of a Railhead) and a Broadside towards my main anti-armour.
Of course both my 'el's have Fusion Blasters, but they're mainly for TEQ's more then Mech. Also my Deathrains Missile pods are mainly for taking down specific IEQ squads such as 'Ard boys or the odd Nids.
If needed I throw ML's fom Pathfinders or Sniper drone spotters onto hidden vehicles to remove their Cover save.
The main armies I face are Mech-Marines, Mech Greyknights, Nob-biker based Orks, Mech based Guard, Troop Based Guard, Wolves and Mech-CSM.
As you mentioned the main armour value I come up against is roughly 12, in which case I have plenty of weapons which can stall them or even take them down.
With plently of 30" St5 weapons to take down the troops inside. I even removed the Fusion from my stealth beacause I can position them so their burst cannons can take down the rear amour of vehicles if needed.
And with my 5 troop choices the objectives are usually safe.
Sorry a weapon breakdown might be usefull:
5 Fusions, 1 at BS 5, 3and Bs 4 (Two twinlinked).
1 Railguns, (XV88 )
3 Plasma, 1 at BS 5, 2 at BS 4.
2 Missile pods, Both BS 4
9 Rail rifles. Mostly all at BS3.
Last edited by Basskin; May 25th, 2009 at 23:56.
I agree with what you are saying riki. Mech is not just "everything in a transport" I pretty much consider 4 vehicles + as mech.
To answer how much firepower is enough I take the following in a 1750pt list and have never worried about armour of any kind.
4 Missile pods (2 at BS 5, 2 at BS 4)
4 Plasma Rifles (2 at BS 5, 2 at BS 4)
2 fusion blasters at BS 5
2 XV 88's
I have yet to face a "mech list" that I couldn't handle. Your list has plenty of tools to take out any mech force.
Wow, interesting topic.
First and foremost, I want to say that I fully believe that it is not the list that I have problems with, it is the person playing the list. Their abilities and understanding of how to use their army is really the big difference maker in whether or not I have a tough game.....whether they have loads of mech or swarms and swarms of infantry. I think that the opponent is what I have difficulty with, not the army style. (There is one guy I play against, man he can take any list and be really competetive with it)
Having said that, armies with a preponderance of Mech are not really the armies I worry about.
I take a similar looking army to you Riki, 2 Railheads, a skyray, 4 DRains with TA's, two Shas'El's, normally with missile pods of some description.
Case in point, I played a marine army last week that had 3 rhino's, 2 Landraiders, 2 land speeders and a unit of assualt marines. I would consider that a "Mech" army. Very fast, 6-7 "vehicles."
By the end of the second turn I had destroyed or immobilsed all three rhino's and one of the Landraiders. From then on I was dealing mostly with foot slogging marines and terminators. The only "mobile sections" were really the assualt squad and land speeders, which I could then focus the majority of my fire on. (Funnily enough I think I did more damage with the seekers on the skyray than Railguns, though it did take the railguns to bring down the Landraider)
6 models with missile pods gives me 12 str 7 opportunities to damage anything with av 12 or lower.
The skyray provides me with 6 more at str 8
and then of course we have 2 str 10 shots in the Railgun that can then switch to subs to shoot at infantry.
Plus plasma rifles can hurt AV 10
I Enjoy a game with XV88's, the models are great, you don't have to think about how to use them (you shoot at the biggest thing available....end of story) and every now and then I will include a couple in a list.
But I think that I would rather have a couple extra Missile pods than a couple extra railguns.
Oh, and for what its worth, I have more trouble with swarm nid lists and lists of Orks with huge mobs than with anything else. But again the guys who play those lists are very skilled players.
I will be interested to see what others think
I don't care what you say. I found a lightsaber in my garage and that makes me a Jedi
That's an understatement!
First off, have you all read kroxigor's "abusing army list thresholds" tactica? It relates directly to this subject. It's a very good read and helped me understand a very important concept of the game. Make sure to read the comments by Psykotikwrm(not sure about the spelling there) and Left of West.
In my gaming league (about 30 players), I would say 70% of the armies I face are mechanized. As you said Riki, this doesn't mean all vehicles. Keep in mind this is just my community, it might be different somewhere else. Also, I have never taken my minis on a trip with me. So this leads me to agree with the people on *unnamed site* that a primary goal in building a list is to "deal with mechanized armies." However I disagree with their analysis that mech means all vehicles.
So how do we deal with mechanized armies? Well, we could just completely overload on anti-tank. Obviously this isn't wise because once we kill the transports there are infantry to consider. Also, we would lose to horde/footslogger lists every game. So scrap that idea.
Here is the one principle I keep in mind whenever I select a unit: versatility. Now I will explain myself in a moment but let me just make clear what I mean. This is not referring to the army as a whole, but rather as single units. With this in mind, I will give a couple examples of versatile Tau units.
1) The Railhead. It is versatile because it will always have a job to do. It can take care of heavy vehicles, light vehicles, and light infantry very efficiently. This is why I love hammerheads (I take 3 at 125O).
2)This one I rarely see used. An XV8 with TL fusion blaster and flamer (which I call sunflame). People may argue that this isn’t an efficient suit, but I’m just going on personal experience, and it almost always makes its points back. I usually deepstrike it just behind a vehicle and then blow it up. If it doesn’t die on the following turn, I go for another vehicle or a nearby infantry squad in cover.
To be more clear, the versatility of a list depends on the versatility of its units. I am not in any way saying that an army should be played as individuals rather than as a whole. However, if your units can operate effectively on their own, then you have created a synergy, where the army is more powerful than the sum of its parts. On the other hand, there are exceptions to this that must be pointed out. Markerlights, for example, are useless on their own, but with another unit firing, they are quite powerful.
To this end, I fully agree that five STR 8 shots is far superior to one STR 10 shot. This is not only due to cover, but also because of the versatility factor. If the firing unit’s only target is a mob of 30 orks, the five STR 8 shots will do five times as much damage. I don’t want to drag this on longer than it needs to be (or have I already?). Basically, it’s a good decision not to load up on units like broadsides because you might be just throwing points into something that won’t help you.
Last edited by MorbidlyObeseMonkey; May 26th, 2009 at 07:20. Reason: Fixed a couple typos.
That being said, I am going to lose 1 XV88 squad from my list in favor of a HH so I can fit more markerlights in.
I think it's more effective to playtest units than sit around thinking and talking about the units.
I think your list looks very very well thought out and would be decent against most armies. And you probably play it very well due to experience. But I think it might be weak against by IG, mech WH, Eldar (council on bikes and non council armies), Lash and ork hoarde which are what I face in my gaming group.
Last edited by mattv2099; May 26th, 2009 at 18:25.
For my main anti armor it's either 2 squads of broadsides one upgraded to a team leader with target lock and 2 shield drones. Or I got 2 hammerheads. I then will go 2 deathrains and my new favorite flamer squad. This squad has a shas'vre with airbursting, twin linked flamers, hw multi track and 2 gun drones with the other 2 suits going twin linked flamer and mpods.
Basically this gives me 3 deathrains and 2 to 4 railguns depending on my mood. I usually run 2 full squads of pathfinders which allow me to strip cover saves off of two of my main tank targets a turn. Sometimes even allows me to up my bs to make sure I hit.
As for tank squadrons I played an all mech IG list the other day. 2 full tank squadrons, 1 basilisk and 4 chimeras. I was running a list I normally do not run that included 2 13 man kroot squads. Both outflanked, came in on the same turn and was able to outflank behind one of his squads. Assaulted and immobilised all 3 tanks. That wiped the whole squad out from 182 points of kroot. The kroot then went on to immobilize his last chimera and strip the weapons off his basilisk.
He did wipe out of of my kroot squads but I lost 91 points to his 800ish. Not bad really.
Top that with my 2 hammerheads taking his other squad and my command squad (fusion/plasma suits) taking his chimeras I took every vehicle he had.
Granted, I had some good rolls on my side. I made all my disruption pod saves and the kroot out performed for me.
Not entirely impressed with the immobilized rule for vehicle squads but it certainly worked for me.
- Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Yep against vehicles they do well but they are just not efficient against anything else. if you have success against your opponents then fine, however I would never use 9 XV88's in a competitive list, it is simply to unbalanced.
Thank you for saying the list is well thought out. My list works well against all the armies you listed. I play against two Ork players regularly and the only unit I struggle against is Nob Bikers, the rest are easy pickings for HH subs, massed STR5 fire and Markerlights, vehicles fall easily especially open topped Orky vehicles.
Eldar: Well I have never had much trouble against them, Falcons are a pain but I find that the Deathrains and ML guided Hammerheads usually deal with them, Skyrays Seekers do well as well. The sheer amount of STR5 long weaponry, Flamer XV8 unit, Kroot and Submunnitons with ML support rip through Eldar armies. Mobility of my list works well against Eldar mobile armies and the lack of exposed targets also helps. IG well the new stuff I cannot really comment on as I have only had one game against a pretty standard IG list which I did lose but only because I lost my objective not because he out armoured me (in fact I destroyed his Leeman Russ, Hellhound and took down his Valk (however he was not used to playing it I must admit).
Chaos never really worry me mainly because I can play against Choas and Marines in my sleep (years of experience) Lash is a swine but it is not a game winner.
Haddatt your post explains my point very well. It is not just units that make lists work, it is the tactical use of units that make the list well. Nobody considers Kroot, Fire Warriors or Stealth's as anti armour units but use of infiltrate (kroot, Stealth), Markerlights and hitting the right AV facing means they can deal with the vast majority of armour.
Overloading on expensive dedicated anti armour units can leave you flat footed in many circumstances. The balance is important and in 5th you cannot ignore the missions and the fact that infantry is the key to winnign or losing a game.
Nothing says that you are going to get to shoot with all of your railguns every turn either.
Now if you are taking 9 of them you are spending a minimum of 740 points, though you probably want team leaders with HWTL's on one in each unit, for an extra 30 pts.
Thats a lot of points for only 9 shots per turn, that can only target 3 different units (6 if you take those TL's).
Now with 9 of them you will have a pretty good chance of being able to target something on the battlefield, but that is not a given. There will be turns when you simply can't target anything with these guys...lets be honest even with ASS they aren't breaking records in the mobility department. So its not that difficult to hide your big badies from them.
For 750 pts I can buy two Shas'Els, with MP's and PR's, two 2 man Deathrain teams with twin-linked MP's (that can target 4 different targets), and two hammerheads.
That's 16 shots that can fire at 8 different units, cover more of the battlefield because I can spread them out more and they are ALL more mobile and they are exceptionally effective at anything up to AV 12-13, two shots that whomp AV14. Plus, I can kill Marines to MC's with the plasma, high toughness units like bikes with the MP's, and do serious damage to swarms, IG, Ork Mobz etc with the Submunition shot. I have way more mobility so it is harder to hide from them, and again can cover WAY more are on the board due to the number of separate units, meaning I get to actually use the troops that I paid for.
It's not even a contest.
And this is not a post bashing XV88's. I love Broadsides. They are without doubt my favourite unit in the game. They look unbelievable, they are tough and carry massive cannons on their shoulders. I will occasionally take a unit of two instead of a hammerhead in my list.
The point is, Tau have weapons that can be used VERY effectively on multiple units. XV88 Railguns are not one those.
How much is too much.......I would say any more than 3 railguns of any type (HH and XV88.) You simply do no need that much STR10 AP1 weaponry in a list.
Last edited by aussiedave; May 26th, 2009 at 23:00.
I don't care what you say. I found a lightsaber in my garage and that makes me a Jedi
Whilst the theme of this topic has been about anti-armour. One thing that I like about the XV88's is that they are versatile. They are not just great at anti-tank (AP1 makes a big difference) they are also great against those high toughness monsters with great saves.
The SMS is not to be sneezed at, doesn't need LOS and has a decent range and good volume of shots.
Whilst 9 of them is not my cup of tea, they are often badly maligned, unjustly IMO.