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I was recently discussing the positives of Carbines in another posting and had done some statistical analysis, when hadaat referenced page 31 of the BRB and reminded me about the fact that pinning was based on unsaved wounds...a fact which I already thought I knew.
After further research however I read this (pg 29 Tau Empire Codex):
"Any unit suffering at least one wound from pulse carbine fire must test for pinning"
No where is it stated that it needs to be an unsaved wound.
I figured this was a simple error and checked games-workshop site for up to date FAQ and Erratta...no clarification or changed wording was found.
I then looked at the entries for the other pinning weapons that the Tau have, namely Rail Rifles...no mention of the way pinning should be delt with, so obviously that is assumed to use the BRB rules.
I know of no other weapon that clarifies how and when the pinning test should be carried out. Does anyone else have a similar example?
That being said, the entry for Pulse Carbines in the Tau Empire Codex takes precedence over the BRB and the wound does not necessarily have to be un-saved to force the test.
I know this is rules lawyering, but technically is this interpretation not correct? Was this the way Pulse Carbines were intended to be used?
Last edited by D'yanoi; June 9th, 2009 at 18:14.
As for the intention, I have no doubt that Pulse Carbines are intended to use the standard pinning rules.
The actual issue is wording ---> I would say that a wound and an unsaved wound are the same thing. First you roll to hit, then, the number of shots that hit have their strength rolled against the target's toughness. The result of this roll is often called "wounds", but that is not accurate since no wounds have yet been caused. I call this the number of "saves". If no saves are possible, then they all become wounds, else only the failed saves become wounds and only if there is one of these wounds (sometimes called casualties) will there be a pinning check.
I have no doubt in my mind that this is the way it is meant to be played, and also the way the rules are written though I admit there is room for a bit of confusion.
I'm sure someone else will reply with a more in depth answer.
-Thread Killer Bryan
Tyranid Hive Fleet Typhoeus
T'au Empire, Bork'an Sept
Well rules lawyering is kind of what we do here. Having a better understanding of the rules is important as I have many times misunderstood a rule or simply assumed it worked the same in a previous edition. Reading the rule an argument for this could be made. The wording however points to saying that so long as at least 1 wound was caused, a pinning check needs to be made. I suspect that this was someone just being wordy but you can never tell.
There is a discussion as to what causes pinning on Warseer. In the rulebook it states that it is per weapon. We are all under the assumption that it is per unit. ( Page 31 ) The wording seems fairly clear to me that it is per weapon. Therefore a carbine FW squad could cause mulitple pinning tests from their shooting.
Say you cause 3 unsaved wounds. That would be 3 leadership rolls for pinning test on the unit that suffered the casualties.
Anyway, what do you all think about this? Here is our chat log on this as it'll save me some time typing. (I'm deanh btw)
whats this about pinning?
It was per unit
But in 5th
Its apperently per weapon
I don't have my rule book but I was reading on Warseer about it
reading it right now
The wording is kinda iffy
But people are split on it
and its heated
I can see why
man, that would make fire warrior carbine teams bad
Makes snipers much more fearful
What test do you need for pinning?
Is it leadership or morale?
I can see why as it says if the unit suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon
morale is normally taken if the unit will break upon failing
I just wanted to make sure
What do you think?
well, being biased from 4rth I can see why they are saying per unit
I think that a weapon that say... has 3 shots that can pin is a single test even if you score 3 wounds
But um man a whole unit of say FWs causing 5 unsaved wounds could mean 5 pin tests
the wording however says "if a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a pinning test.
'a pinning weapon'
it is specific about it taking wounds from a weapon
so a blast or weapon that shoots multiple times would be a single test
honestly, with the wording I would say each weapon from a unit could cause a test
but I'm against it as it would be really over powered
Thats how I am leaning
let me clarify, the rule seems pretty clear so I am for. I personally think its a bit overpowered
but expect to see some carbine slinging FW next game )
Well lets think about it
How many units are using weapons that cause pinning?
Though I think the most comes from IG and Tau in as far as Pinning ability
Which in a way... makes sense... they are the shooty armies
most pinning weapons are either blast in nature or sniper
But blast is a single weapon
Snipers are limited in numbers
IG can field alot of snipers though now in their units... more so than before
And TAU have alot of weapons that can pin
Makes carbines alot more useful
Last edited by haddatt; June 9th, 2009 at 18:52.
- Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
From BRB pg 20 on Armor Saves...
"If the dice result is equal to or higher than the model's Sv characteristic than the wound is stopped."
This furthers the idea that an saved "wound" is no wound at all.
As per the multiple pin checks, BRB pg 18. "When a unit fires, all of its weapons are fired simultaneously, so you should ideally roll all of its To Hit dice together."
I am under the impression then that wounds would be taken simultaneously and therfore only one pinnning check per unit shooting if a wound is caused.
Darn! Here I thought I was being clever. Any other thoughts?
Btw Zen, I agree my initial thought violated the spirit of the game but I don't like to have to interpret rulings and that wordiness of the "Pulse Carbine" entry just caused confusion.
For every shooting unit you have that causes at least one pinning wound, you cause a single pinning check. Say two units of drones each inflict a single wound on a particular target unit. That unit would have to take two pinning checks. The number of wounds caused by each unit of drones does not affect the number of pinning checks.
The Tau codex simply states -- in an archaic and roundabout way -- that pulse carbines cause pinning. The Tau codex does not mention the mechanics of pinning in any way. In order to see how pinning works, you have to look at the BRB.Note that it's "wounds". Multiple wounds only cause a single test. ("Pinning weapon" in this conext is clearly a reference to a weapon type, not a numerical summation of weapons. )Originally Posted by BRB p. 31
Because shooting is always sequential, unit by unit, and because the pinning test must be taken "immediately", you can only force multiple pinning checks on a single unit by inflicting pinning wounds from shooting by more than one of your own units.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
A wound is a wound until a save is rolled and then and only then does it become an unsaved or saved wound.
The rule for pinning in the main rulebook says 'unsaved wounds' but apparently Codex trumps rulebook.
The rulebook also says that the unit taking the pinning test can be made to take multiple pinning tests but as soon as they fail one of the tests they do not take further tests.
In respect to the argument that Tau Pulse carbines mean a pinning test for every wound caused, well I disagree that a test is taken for each wound. The rules specifically states that 'A' pinning test singular is taken if at least one wound is caused.
The rule in the 40K rulebook states a pinning test is taken when a unit suffers an 'unsaved' wound from a pinning weapon. However the Tau codex does not stipulate an 'unsaved' qualifier so Tau cannot utilise this rule, their codex rule overrides the 40K rule.
Basically we have two different qualifiers that if met result in a pinning test:
(1) The main 40K rulebook pinning qualifier 'unsaved wound from a pinning weapon'
(2) The Tau codex qualifier 'at least one wound caused from Pulse Carbine fire'
So for Tau we basically have this:
Any unit suffering at least one wound from a Pulse carbine must roll a pinning test. The wound does not have to be unsaved and it is irrelevant how many wounds are caused. Multiple wounds does not mean multiple pinning tests, that applies to units following the pinning rule in the 40K rule book.
So actually Tau are sold a bit short, OK they do not have to cause an unsaved wound but we do not get multiple pinning tests.
Note: The normal pinning rules are followed by other Tau pinning weapons.
If you ready the pinning rules it readily states," if a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a pinning test."
Many pinning weapons are in fact blast weapons so can cause more then one wound. As this is a single weapon, only one pinning test would be taken. It specifically states "from a pinning weapon" meaning each weapon is counted separately. No where in the new rules does it say only one test per firing unit.
- Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
The Tau codex differs in that it simply states 'a wound' it totally ignores and invalidates the unsaved portion of the rule in the 40K rulebook (that qualifier is not needed for Pulse carbine pinning). If at least one wound is caused then the unit takes a pining test singular. It does not matter if the wound is unsaved or saved just as long as a wound is caused. All the wounds could be saved but the unit still takes a pinning test.
The Tau rule is very clear because it specifies the fact that only one wound has to be caused to trigger the pinning test. This means that as long as one wound is caused it does not really matter if scores more wounds are inflicted because the unit will still be testing for pinning as soon as a minimum of one wound is inflicted.
That is the trade of, the Tau do not get multiple pinning tests from one units carbine fire but they do get a pinning test even if all the wounds are saved.
Until this is addressed in a FAQ that is the way it has to be played. The rules are very clear.
Last edited by Rikimaru; June 9th, 2009 at 22:38.
So if a squad of carbine FW cause 3 unsaved wounds, it's 3 separate leadership tests. If all the wounds were saved, You still take a single leadership test as per the codex rule for carbines.
- Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.