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I've got a buddy that's building the first turn GK rush list and I think he's going for a 2K pt list for tournies and what not. I've got footslogging lists at the ready to TRY and deal with it through sheer numbers but I don't know what to do when I'm going to get tied up on my side of the board with CC units that are so freakin scary.
Is it really just going to come down to whether or not he gets first turn?
We both know it's not a really friendly list but we like to be challenged and this is what he's come up with to challenge me next time.
From what he's been saying I think he'll have the GK HQ termie person and a retinue making the 1st turn charge and then a gunline to just mow down whatever is left.
I know some people will say "go mechanized!" but that's just not an option as I dont' have money or time to paint/put together 4 battle wagons or 6 trukks.
I dont know what GK first turn rush is, can you explain the tactic?
I'm not an Ork player but was interested in this topic when I saw it in the highlights. I have a friend who is a dedicated GK player, so I'm REALLY interested on how he can get a first turn charge.
Spearhead and Pitched Battle deployments can easily avoid a first turn charge unless you move up to him. In Dawn of War deployment, if his GK Terminators can take a Dedicated Land Raider (I can't recall if they can), it may be feasible to assault on Turn 1. He does this by deploying at the center line, moving 12" and deploying and then moving 6" to assault. BUT, don't forget, if he goes first, you have a chance to deploy further than his assault range, so what's the problem?
Last edited by Firaya; June 22nd, 2009 at 07:05. Reason: Left out DoW deployment phrase >.>
Grey Knights as part of a Guard army can use Valkyries/Vendettas to scout to be 12.0001" away from enemy models before the first turn. Then, unless the initiative is seizes, the Grey Knights can disembark 2" and charge 12".
Obviously if the Guard do not have first turn they wouldn't attempt this (instead outflanking with the Vend/Valk making a 14" charge zone on the short board edges).
What's worse is that technically the Vend/Valks can carry up to 12 Terminator models. It explicitly says in the Guard codex that Ogryn models cannot be transported, but does not mention Terminators.
Last edited by kroxigor01; June 22nd, 2009 at 07:30.
Oh, this is a new strategy. My friend doesn't ally with IG so it's the first time hearing it for me.
In any case, it's not impossible to block. Assuming the GK/IG player is going to do this move, then you can just bunch up in one corner and let him charge you. Use your Trukks as a screen, or if you don't use those, then make a 30 Boyz unit as a screen. This is of course not including any other better Orky tricks which I'm sure the Ork community will share with you.
Of course, while we're busy doing this, our opponent will then shoot from far first to thin out the lines Decision, decisions
I've been doing some geometry for the last few hours and I've convinced myself this strategy will not work unless the person executing it takes their opponent completely by surprise.
For orks, our MVP the grot can counter this strategy 100% of the time in the deployment.
I'm assuming you're deploying second because this strategy requires the player employing it to have the 1st turn.
This 1st turn rush thing doesnt look like it'll work reliably. I could be wrong though.
I feel confident in my math, but i could have erred, if there is an error it's probably because I don't understand the rules well enough, still pretty new to all of this...but my thinking is as follows (images included):
In order for this to work the unit will have to scout almost parallel to the table edges
Notice that the greater the angle theta gets, the less vertical movement the unit gets to make. There's some value of theta greater than which the tactic fails, and the assaulting unit fails to reach the opponent's deployment zone. The two symmetrical yellow triangles in the opponents deployment zone represent the 'assault threat area' of the unit.
I've calculated the angle theta by calculating the angle to the right of it, that triangle with a 12" hypotenuse has a right side of 10 because there's 24 inches between the two deployment zones, and what we're looking for is the spot where the 14 inch charge (2 inch disembark + 12 inch charge) is JUST ENOUGH to reach the opponent deploy zone. that's one point in each of those yellow triangles. Once we know the angle theta (180 minus the angle right next to it) I just calculated the value of X as the arcsin of X/12 ===6.63
Here's what that means for those who didnt follow all the math....... There's a yellow triangle that the assaulting unit can get to, it's made up of those two yellow triangles. It's 2 inches deep by 13.2 inches wide.
If you are worried about somebody using this strategy against you, place three grots one behind the other directly in front of the transport, the front one just touching the edge of your deploy zone. Now, move the last one a half an inch back.
Now take the front two and put them next to the back one on either side. Deploy the unit of grots diagonally like a wedge.
The two short sides of that big yellow triangle are roughly 7 inches, So you need 14 inches of grots to cover the entire thing.... or at least 7 grots 2" apart with some behind to handle casualties.
The closest the assaulting unit can get is 1/2 inch away from your grots. Or you could just put a sweet target 3 inches back from the deploy zone, or like 1/2 inch back from any point on that triangle and hope they try the charge. They'll fail if your opponent is honest with his/her moves, and they're stuck with their move, open for an ork charge.
This strategy seems a bit better for spearhead deployment, but, grots can still counter it.
Look, the optimal place to put the transport this strategy relies upon is those two red squares.
The big red circle is the assault range of the unit, circle with radius 26".
The diagonal line is just a line from one corner of the board to the other, cutting both deployment zones into 2 equal triangles at 45 degrees.
The grey circle is a no-deploy zone of radius 12".
A couple of quick observations:
The assaulting unit using this strategy can reach the entire side of your deploy zone which it is closest to, except for about .8 of an inch from the edge of the board.
If it runs through the center, taking the most direct route into your deploy zone, it'll make it 4 inches in, (The distance between the Grey circle and the red circle where those two lines meet is 4 inches)
I spent a bunch of time on the math for this one, but most of it isnt relevant. All you need to know is that the perimeter of a circle with radius 12 is roughly 75.4 The 1/4 of that circle in your quarter of the board is almost 19 inches. Add that with the 12 inches of your deploy zone closest to the assaulting unit and you have 31 inches of deploy zone to guard. That requires at most 15 grots to cover, remove casualties beginning with as far away from the assaulting unit as possible. Just deploy a unit of grots along the perimeter of your deploy zone along the circle 12" from the center and down the short edge closes to the assaulting unit. It'll only be able to assault grots. (again, just so long as enough of them survive the shooting phase.
Last edited by jcress410; June 22nd, 2009 at 14:12. Reason: edited a few times b/c the links to images were't working...
I can help here. Being a Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters player, who is starting Orks, I actually know. Yippeee.
Anyway, on a more serious note:
For this to work, Daemonhunter player needs a Land Raider Crusader and a Callidus assasin.
Sequence for this to work (in example text, pretend things are 24" apart):
Callidus assasin does a "word in your ear" moving one of your TROOP units 6" forward.
First turn Land Raider goes forward 12", Terminators get out 2". Charge 6".
Doing the calculations: 24-6(callidus)-12(Land Raider)-2(disembark)-6(charge).
So, if you're within 26" of the Land Raider, you're in trouble.
BUT there are numerous ways to counter this, some are:
As has been said earlier, put things further away.
Another way is to put two large units next to each other. Opponent will move one forward, then assault it. Let it happen. But in your turn you get to assault the Grey Knights. Bear in mind, he's got 2+ save, so get a LOT of Power Klaws.
Another way is to put a small sacrifical unit spread out 2" apart along your deployment line. Right on the edge of your deployment zone. It's cheesy, but so is the 1st turn assault. He cannot move this unit forwards, as it's right on your line. He cannot move ANOTHER unit into this unit, as he's not allowed to break unit coherency. If he decides to get the charge in on this sacrifical unit, you've got a backup unit to counter charge.
A thing that I've noticed on some of the more questionable Daemonhunter players, is that they move the unit 6" towards them. Measure VERY carefully. On page 28 of Daemonhunters book, it explains it, but to surmise your unit MUST be within your deployment zone. They are NOT allowed to move the unit out of your deployment zone.
Any other help needed, give me a shout.
Evan GotteWargaming since 1992Wargames are like Chess on Steroids
Stick a nice line of Grots up front to absorb any charges, then shoot dem beekees to bits.
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Valkyries aren't assault vehicles.. so the GK's can't deploy then assault AFAICT.