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  1. #1
    NCIS fan MaleOpener's Avatar
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    Working on a crisis config idea.

    Good morning all,


    I recently worked on an idea for a crisis config, and would love to hear your HONEST opinions on it.

    Brightsoul ( may change name ) Config :

    2 Shas'ui with TL flamer, drone controller & 1 gun drone

    1 Shas'ui ( team leader ) with flamer, TL fusion blaster, HW MT, HW DC & 1 gun drone

    Team total is 149 pts.

    *It is an attempted version of Riki's "Torch" config.*

    Thanks in advance for the help/opinions.



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  3. #2
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    I think its perfect for the Arena of Death ... and hope you haven't entered it. It's too similar to my own.

    In regular games of 40K, my issue with it is that it must be close to the enemy to function. The Tau should never ever want to get up close and personal. Sure, such a unit would make a decent counter-assault unit for those enemy units that do get too close. That's tactically sound, but that's essentially keeping a unit in reserve not doing something productive for at least part of the game.

    Compare to the effectiveness of a 3-man fireknife team when both are within assault range of Marine tactical squad. Assuming truly astounding coverage by your flamers (both twin-linked and the single one) of 5 Marines for each flamer, your "brightsoul" unit, statistically, will kill 4.325 Marines. (Yes, this includes the gun drones and the fusion blaster, too.) The fireknife unit will smoke 3.333 Marines.

    You might argue that 1 Marine is a pretty big deal, but that number not only assumes that you accumulate 15 wounds from your three flamers (which is pretty unlikely assuming the Marine player isn't bunching his models together like hens), it also doesn't take into account previous turns worth of shooting where the fireknife unit can accumulate even more deaths while the brightsoul unit will be twiddling its thumbs waiting for the right moment to strike.

    Furthermore ... your army has markerlights, right? Markerlights are really no help at all for the brightsoul unit. Even raising the BS of the unit to 5 (mostly for the gun drones), you don't break 5 Marine kills, statistically speaking. But spending just one markerlight token on the fireknives to raise their BS to 4 yields significant benefits. Suddenly they kill 4.44 Marines, equaling the brightsoul unit. Take them to BS 5 and you get 5.55 dead Marines.

    Regarding cover, it's true that your brightsoul unit denies cover for many of the wounds, but other than the fusion blaster, those Marines all get their armour saves anyway. And a cover save vs a fusion blaster is just as effective as a cover save vs a plasma rifle. Only markerlight hits expended to deny cover from the fireknives will be far more effective, because of the number of wounds involved, then denying cover saves against wounds from the brightsoul unit. (Only the fusion blaster wound would be effected.)

    So all in all, I don't find the brightsoul unit very compelling. And really, this analysis holds for any crisis suit config primarily aimed at wounding the enemy up close with flamers. I do put flamers on my deathrains, but that is primarily for points savings. And sure, they do come in handy from time to time as well. But my deathrains don't go looking for trouble like that.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  4. #3
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    I think its perfect for the Arena of Death ... and hope you haven't entered it. It's too similar to my own.

    In regular games of 40K, my issue with it is that it must be close to the enemy to function. The Tau should never ever want to get up close and personal. Sure, such a unit would make a decent counter-assault unit for those enemy units that do get too close. That's tactically sound, but that's essentially keeping a unit in reserve not doing something productive for at least part of the game.

    Compare to the effectiveness of a 3-man fireknife team when both are within assault range of Marine tactical squad. Assuming truly astounding coverage by your flamers (both twin-linked and the single one) of 5 Marines for each flamer, your "brightsoul" unit, statistically, will kill 4.325 Marines. (Yes, this includes the gun drones and the fusion blaster, too.) The fireknife unit will smoke 3.333 Marines.

    You might argue that 1 Marine is a pretty big deal, but that number not only assumes that you accumulate 15 wounds from your three flamers (which is pretty unlikely assuming the Marine player isn't bunching his models together like hens), it also doesn't take into account previous turns worth of shooting where the fireknife unit can accumulate even more deaths while the brightsoul unit will be twiddling its thumbs waiting for the right moment to strike.

    Furthermore ... your army has markerlights, right? Markerlights are really no help at all for the brightsoul unit. Even raising the BS of the unit to 5 (mostly for the gun drones), you don't break 5 Marine kills, statistically speaking. But spending just one markerlight token on the fireknives to raise their BS to 4 yields significant benefits. Suddenly they kill 4.44 Marines, equaling the brightsoul unit. Take them to BS 5 and you get 5.55 dead Marines.

    Regarding cover, it's true that your brightsoul unit denies cover for many of the wounds, but other than the fusion blaster, those Marines all get their armour saves anyway. And a cover save vs a fusion blaster is just as effective as a cover save vs a plasma rifle. Only markerlight hits expended to deny cover from the fireknives will be far more effective, because of the number of wounds involved, then denying cover saves against wounds from the brightsoul unit. (Only the fusion blaster wound would be effected.)

    So all in all, I don't find the brightsoul unit very compelling. And really, this analysis holds for any crisis suit config primarily aimed at wounding the enemy up close with flamers. I do put flamers on my deathrains, but that is primarily for points savings. And sure, they do come in handy from time to time as well. But my deathrains don't go looking for trouble like that.
    I really agree with none of this. The twin linked flamer unit has advantages that the fireknife unit does not, mainly the automatic hits, re-roll for all failed wounds and stacking of wounds.
    The key to using the torch squad is to make sure all the templates hit and as long as they do the whole unit takes hits. There are no partial hits with templates in 5th so as long as the template touches a model it is hit automatically. Three Flamers can easily cover a whole squad and it is very rare that a target unit is spaced out to the maximum and we all know that is true.
    Re-rolling wounds can easily result in 10 wounds on a unit from the flamers alone and that is not shabby. Good thing about the Flamer is it denies cover saves and this is a major problem with Plasma's, cover nerfs Plasma badly. if you are lucky enough to get say four hits from a full FK squad the cover save (average 4+) will knock the casualty rate down by half, this simply is not a problem with the Flamer unit.

    The problem with your reduction of cover saves using ML's is just that, you need to use ML tokens that can be used elsewhere to provide more useful benefits such as upping the BS for that other unit shooting those pesky Marines.

    I take Missile pods on my Torch squad which basically makes it a Fireknife equivalent unit with none of the disadvantages.
    The MP allows ranged shots at transports etc while the Torch squad moves into flamer range and then the Flamers take over. I would advise against the Fusions because it is at odds with the units purpose.
    If the unit is killing infantry then you are better of giving the team leader TL Flamers and maximising the flamers hit and wound rate. Trust me take the Missile pods it truly makes the unit a true multi purpose unit in a much better way than any FK squad.
    Fireknives are an exercise in compromise and need ML's to really perform. The Torch squad with MP's does not need ML's to perform and is a truly versatile unit that is unhindered by cover and can be used from turn one.

    Put it this way 4 or 5 Marines a turn is bloody good for any unit and the Torch/MP squad is easily capable of achieving that on a regular basis and against non MEQ's it is brutal.
    1984

  5. #4
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    786 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    I really agree with none of this.
    Of course not!

    My only retort is that 3-man Fireknife teams are totally worthy targets for markerlights, and the statistics show that doing so pays superb dividends. Even without markerlights, a fireknife team matches up very well to a torch squad up close, twin-linked flamers and their rerollable wounds and all. Plus it is more capable and reliable at range than any torch squad (plasma rifles being able to reach out and touch enemies from much farther away than the flamers).

    It may be a "compromise" build, but I find that it's undeniably effective, especially over the long haul.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  6. #5
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    Of course not!
    Well it wouldn't be a proper thread if we weren't disagreeing eh, have a friendly beer
    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    My only retort is that 3-man Fireknife teams are totally worthy targets for markerlights, and the statistics show that doing so pays superb dividends. Even without markerlights, a fireknife team matches up very well to a torch squad up close, twin-linked flamers and their rerollable wounds and all. Plus it is more capable and reliable at range than any torch squad (plasma rifles being able to reach out and touch enemies from much farther away than the flamers).

    It may be a "compromise" build, but I find that it's undeniably effective, especially over the long haul.
    Retort, good word I like it. The problem with Fireknives is to be truly effective they rely on ML's. If you want the shot volume then you will have two XV8's (in a three man team) that without ML's will miss 50% of the time, that Plasma is not reaching out quite as much then is it.

    The other thing not covered is cost, a unit of Fireknives with team leader with TA and Multi costs 201pts minimum.

    This Torch squad config costs 159pts

    Torch squad
    1 x teamleader with twin linked Flamer, Missile pod, HW Multi, HW Drone controller and Gun Drone, target lock, BK
    2 x XV8's with twin linked Flamers, Missile Pod

    For this you get 3 Missile pods firing at the same BS as the FK squad basic elite members, three twin linked Flamers and an extra Gun Drone for possible pinning and/or wound absorbtion and a BK thrown in as well (extra on the FK squad cost). You get all that for 42pts less than the FK squad and like I said the flamers perform regardless of Marker lights, cover BS of the suits and they perform much better against non MEQ units than the FK.
    42pts is a lot of points spare when building a Tau list and the unit does not need the ML's to function. The thing I like about the Torch unit is it is not a compromise in any way, the MP's do what MP's do and the Flamers are just very good. The unit is a true multi task unit and that is rare.
    Last edited by Rikimaru; July 2nd, 2009 at 21:45.
    1984

  7. #6
    NCIS fan MaleOpener's Avatar
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    TL flamer and MP, got'cha


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