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hey to finish off my or apoca rmy im either deciding two big mobz of stormboyz or ghaz and some meganobz in a bw what do u guys think
Personally, I vote for meganobz in a transport, and here is why:
They are better at both dealing damage and with soaking it up, and they don't have a 1/6 chance of blowing up.
Applaud, my friend, the Comedy is finished.
Hive Fleet Charybdis (1-0-0) and Grey Brothers Space Wolf Chapter (3-1-2) [W-L-T]
ill be honest. i would get both. there is areas and battle setups that will make the stormboyz king and other meganobz. my first choice in stormboyz though.
I am an Indestructible master of War.
i don't play apoca much but i do use both meganobz and stormboyz. I think meganobz really work better when transported in big numbers (8,9,10 ) as they just take forever to kill (and are even better if you upgrade them with mad dok grotsnik's Da big Dok rule.
There is something to be said for grotsnik & Meganobz with cybork bodies for apocalypse. There will always be a target for them, and they'll shred tanks too.
Besides, apocalypse was made for units of 2 wound 2+/5++/4+++ monsters.
And also, being that I have been trying to get into deffwing armies lately I have been proxying a lot and playing some games and I really love MANZ. So I am a tad biased I guess. Though, my voe is not for the meganobz in this case.
Knowing nothing about the composition of your army, I have to assume that you have no other battlewagonz. But trying to assume a little bit more intelligently, I have to assume that at 3000+ points, being that you don't have MANZ already in your army, then you probably only have a max of 3 battlewagonz in your army. Those are the only two options, and that is what I am going to look at with my suggestions below:
No battlewagonz currently in your force:
-Take the stormboyz. Not only are they fast and will get their to lay some pounding on the enemy, but if a few of them die, they can keep going, and they don't rely on a transport to get there as fast as the rest of the army.
-Being that you have no battlewagonz in your force, adding in one lonely battlewagon is just going to be a huge firetarget. If you don't get first turn, you are gonig to need a severe amount of luck to even get 13 inches (assuming you take red paint job). And if that gets destroyed, you don't have any other battlewagonz that can rescue the unit and still transport them to the enemy lines. Making it almost useless for you to include manz cause they will never make it any distance.
1 Battlewagon currently in your force:
-Again, I say the same as the previous 'no battlewagonz in force' entry. Even with 1 in your force already, it is most likely in there for a reason. You probably have a unit of 20 boyz in there. Or 20 grots, lol, or burnaz or whatever really... So it still wouldn't be a spare for your manz, and whatmore, your manz would still be targeted first.
2 Battlewagonz currently in your force:
-Provided one of these is spare and has transport capabilities, then I say the decision is yours, but personaly, I still think it is a bit of a risk on 700pts in one unit that can easily be crippled and then do nothing the entire game except soak up fire.
3 Battlewagonz currently in your force:
-Again, providing that one of these is spare and has transport capabilities, the decision is yours. At this point, I would be leaning more towards the manz then the stormboyz, but the decision seems like the stormboyz would still get to the fight, where as if your lucky, by the end of the game the manz might get there at 2-5 strong.
4+ Battlewagonz currently in force:
-MANZ MANZ MANZ MANZ!!!! The more battlewagonz the likelier that the manz will survive first turn shooting, or have a backup battlewagon to save their bacon. And with that many battlewagonz, you are bound to have other tantalizing squads in your army that will attract just as much fire, so it seems like at this point, it is worth it.
-With all of this said, one aspect I did not touch upon is the fire magnet strategy. Regardless of apoc or not. People fear manz, as they should. Regardless of no inv save, these guys are HUGE, STRONG, TOUGH, and did I mention ORKS!!! While I think that it is a viable strategie to include them in an apoc army to be a firemagnet and save the rest of your force from getting shot for 2 turns, which, would actually prove to get their points value returned indirectly, I wouldn't do that. These guys are built to kill. They are built to soak up damage and then kill. If you are using them to soak up damage, you are playing them defensively and I for one, think that is a bad way to play orks from a fun point of view, which is what apoc to me is all about. But I digress.... If you want to use them regardless of the amount of battlewagonz in your force, then if you don't have enough armour, they are going to end up as cannon fodder. Your 30 grots will get to the line before any of your manz are alive.... Then again, so will the rest of your force, and most of them will be relatively unhurt, but still, it's just not a great thing. Furthermore, ghaz raises their leadership so you don't have to worry about them running away right away. But eventually when enough casualties are sustained, they might just do that.
-If you are not going to include 7-9 + a character (preferably Ghaz or a megaboss), then don't take manz in your apoc unit. The unit will either be too small to be worth their points, or if they don't have a character, regardless of how big they are, the second they sustain a few casualties, they are going to run away.
-A lot of people talk about how cool grotsnik is and how no manz unit is complete without him. But during an apoc game, there are going to be so many units on the board that the opponent will quickly learn of grotsnik's pitfalls and will exploit them. Then your 600-750pts unit is going to run around in a circle with their own power claws up their bums.... He is cool because of what he adds to the unit, but overall just not worth it.
With all this said, I really love a deffwing army. If your army is all manz, then you remove tons of these pitfalls, or at least, even if you don't and loose a squad, all you really need is 1 squad of manz to always be in melee to eventually kill enough to win a 1500pt - 2000pt game.
Now sure stormboyz will not do the same damage, they will not soak up the same damage, and they are not nearly as awesome as manz, but they are more reliable, regardless of their 1 in 6 chance of having a guy die off per turn. With stormboyz on an apoc game, it is a good chance that 2nd turn you'll be assaulting (hopfully a weak shooty unit) with them. With the same amount of manz as you can get stormboyz, you'll be lucky if your assaulting third turn with them. But oh the awesome might and power that will hit your opponent if you do get that manz assault in.
After reading this, you must think that even though I am getting into deffwing, I hate manz. It is quite the opposite. I think manz are amazing, and one of the best units in the codex. I also think that they can be one competitive army to face if the full army is maganobz, or if a squad of 3 in a trukk are on tank hunting duty. But overall, they are generally poor to semi-competitive. And if you want to have fun, I say take them. But if you want to have fun while being a tad more competitive in apoc, I say take the stormboyz. The slow and purposeful of the manz is just too rough in apoc, especially once their transport gets destroyed, which will happen fast in apoc due to the huge amount of anti-tank people bring to those kinda games.
Hope this helps,
I'm aware that I said Grotsnik and not Gzaghkull and I meant it. Meganobz have 2 big issues: susceptible to AP2 fire & poor leadership. Grotsnik solves both of those problems. The question then becomes, how do you solve Grotsnik's problem?
Apocalypse is one of the few times that there's simply too much going on that you can't lead away a single unit: the board is often too crowded.
Also, there are strategic assets. Flank March, Strategic Redeployment, & Tunnels all make meganobz fantastic, regardless of whether or not they have a battlewagon to cart them around (and in the case of tunnels, they can't have that wagon anyways). Throw some tunnels around areas that you think will be important to the enemy, and then when you pop up, you're right in the center of the action, where you'll be thankful for your 2+/5++/4+++