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I just had a couple questions in my head that seem legitimate and I don't mean to start an argument or whine about rules. There's just a thing or two that I'd like to have someone else's opinion on.
So, per the standard system of taking a soldier and putting him on a bike platform, the unit normally gets a +1 Toughness to show the power of the bike to add survivability (but not to being insta-killed by strong weapons). And in the Necron book the description states they take an Immortal and fuse it to a skimmer body, or basically a jetbike. And Immortal is T5, but adding a body it still comes out T5. Unless the Toughest part of the Immortal is it's legs and is just as tough as an armored skimmer... seems like we're coming up short. I mean, it works when we add a Lord to it... Or, ok, T6 units might be a bit too much for a 50/65 point unit. But couldn't we keep the T5 and get 2 Wounds now? The other attack bikes and bike saregents get 2 wounds at least, with the same or better stats, for less points, and a bigger gun (Multi-melta usually).
And the other point with Destroyers is they are modeled with a 3-eyed targeting array over one side of their face but... no bonuses. No higher BS, no re-rolls. It's like they upgraded them to be more flashy, but no extra utility. WYSI(Not)WYG in that case.
I could go on like how Wraiths can pass thru impassible terrain, but can't seem to figure a way past power armor and the like, but I think that's it for now. Again, not complaining, since I hope these will be looked at in the next Codex, but am I the only one that sees these glaring holes?
Lol, yes I know those exact thoughts and it's an argument I've made many times.
The targeting unit on the eye of the Destroyer gave them the 3ed equivalent of relentless, which I believe wasn't a jetbike ability back then, jetbikes took the same movement penalties as infantry. Since then this ruling has been added to make space marine bikes better (since it doesn't matter for ANY OTHER TYPE).
The toughness...well I dunno what to tell you there. I've had the same thought, and never can come up with a good answer.
Wraiths, the same. I feel that's a power balance issue though, that many S6 power weapon attacks is something normally only seen on Named Characters back in 3ed (or Grey knights). That many power weapon attacks, even if they were dropped to S4, is pretty heavy duty for a squad that nearly always goes first and can fly through buildings. Even if it does make complete sense in the fluff.
Ah ok, I can see that giving them the targeting allows them to fire on the move via Relentless. I guess I can live with that. :-p And I guess you're right for the other parts of Wraiths they will be attacking first 3-4 attacks at S6. The high Str is probably supposed to display how ruthless they are with their blades, but still... I'd prolly be happier with Str4 and power weapons. That, or Rending instead of power since then it won't be every attack as a power weapon, just one or two of them. Across the board, I'm sad about the 1 Wound units costing so much. I have to take Heavies every game because I play a Tau that always takes 3 rails to take out my Lith... but if he turns anything towards my Heavies, down they go, which sucks for 65 points of your army.
Ok, with their toughness, armor and WBB, they are tough to crack, but I chalk it up to my poor rolling on Armor/WBB. I played on Sat and I think 40% of the numbers I rolled were 1s. I only won because I turbo-boosted my destroyers into his base point on turn 5 and ended it.
You have to read it really carefully but destroyers are WARRIORS fused to skimmer bodies so toughness 5 is right, its heavy destroyers that are immortals on skimmer bodies so technically they should be toughness 5(6). As on wraiths they simply need rending. It makes perfect sense and it wouldn't unbalance them too much. As a house rule we give wraiths rending and heavy destroyers toughness 5(6). But we also allow AP1 and AP2 weapons to ignore WWBB same as they ignore FNP so it all balances out.
Ye Old Necrons (R.I.P.) (7000pts) W52 D5 L9
New Crons!!! (5000pts) W1 D1 L1
Blood Angels (2500pts) W4 D0 L1
Actually, you're wrong in the fluff it is and immortal, but the first line in it also says "Necron warriors", talking the same way you'd say human warriors, differentiating between the fighters and non-fighters, rather than the unit Warriors
And now a quote to prove it (from the fluff next to the Destroyers), note the capital letters:So esentially you got caught up in a very understandable mistake that comes down to "Bad wording GW, Bad!"Necron warriors fused to skimming flyers are know and feared as Destroyers. They are a heavily altered form of the Necron Immortal...
Anyways, my take on why they don't have toughness 4(5) or whatever (other than possibly they didn't think of it in 3rd edition, not sure) is that a Space Marine Biker, is a dude in a rocket powered chair, he can get up, or blasted out by an explosion, same with every other unit like that, they can be separated, Destroyers can't. They ARE the jetbike, and any explosion that's enough to kill the biker, and leave the bike working, wouldn't work on a Destroyer, because they are inseprably connected.
Adalias, then what do you think it should be, if they fixed it, or you had your way? I could really go with leaving the toughness and giving an extra wound, so it's not just a glass cannon and is more forgiving of bad rolls. And yeah, rending needs to be applied libearlly to the Necron CC units since we can't just spend a couple points and get power weapons. We have 1 on the lord, and one unit of Pariahs that have it... whoopdie doo.
It's not that the units are THAT bad, it's just compared to how the marines keep getting buffed and then the points reduced... I'd like to see some Necron love.
Haunter, Necrons are expecting a new codex within the next year, so for the most part it's just a matter of sitting tight and waiting for that to happen. Space Marines are the GW Cash Cow, and as much as I dislike it they come first. Granted Space Wolves (which are coming out in October) REALLY needed a new codex.
I think really GW just needs to slow down with making new editions and focus on getting all the codexes updated for each edition [/rant]
Something Stunted_Merc and I have considered for wraiths is making them S5 with power weapons. Which really sounds rather nice (though might jump them to 50pts?) it's ok to have a glass cannon unit too.
Also for Destroyers T5 3+ save and WBB is VERY durable, granted Immortals are cheaper most of what you're paying for is the movement and weapon upgrades. I don't think I can ever agree with them being "to soft." especially if you can find them a little spot of cover.
Tomb Spyders Ignore saves too! Don't forget to give them the love they deserve! *Shakes fist*
lol, yeah I forgot about the Spyders, I haven't fielded one yet. It's super tempting, but they just move soooo sloooow. Necrons are all I've played, and my warriors tend to stay put on objectives and use scarabs or destroyers for killing, so I haven't sampled each unit in battle yet.
I still would keep destroyers at the same stat line +1 wound. 3+ saves are nothing compared to my rolling 1 streaks. Some battles I might not even have WBB and I'm just fielding Marines it's so bad. I just get wins cause I play the objectives and not trying to kill everything I see. At first my Tau opponent was just poor at planning his army and I could kill everything he fielded, but he's gotten wise and fields killer units now, so I'm shifting to the objectives. When he does that as well... I dunno if I'll be able to win anymore...
Forgive me if I am a little new to Necron lore, but in the wargear section, you can give the Lord a destroyer body, thus boosting him to T6 and making him immune to instant kills by double Toughness. However, in the BRB, bikes and their types boost your toughness...but that bonus toughness isn't taken into consideration for Instant Deaths! What gives? Is this an oversight my GW?
I would have to go with Adalias' explanation above, that they are not sitting on a bike, they ARE the bike. A dude on a bike can jump off the bike and still get shot by a heavy weapon, where as the Lord is now a monster of skimmer goodness and the body actually makes it more resistant.