Read your 5th editions - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 20
  1. #1
    Member Tz'arken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Age
    26
    Posts
    86
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    2 (x1)

    Read your 5th editions

    I see many people post about how Tau need many troops for 5th. Why? I'm not going to get into power gaming lists or anything but it seems many have not fully read the rules of Seize Ground nor Capture and Control. Yes you need troops to score but the thing people seem to over look is that you can also deny a scoring troop with any model. Now with how mobile most of are non scoring units are we can get away with out having many troops imo. I didn't make this post to say the only good Tau army is one with suit spam or w/e but just to point out there isn't one way to play Tau.


  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Senior Member MorbidlyObeseMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    411
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputation
    53 (x1)

    Indeed.

    From what I've seen, most tourney winning or high-placing Tau lists at 2k consist of one 6-man fire warrior squad, 2 kroot squads with hounds, 9 fireknives (not saying they are the best option, just what I've seen winning) + shas'el FK, 3 HHs, one pathfinder squad, and 2 squads of two piranhas.

    Lots of fast things to contest objectives, with only 3 scoring units.

    M.O.M.

  4. #3
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    The Village
    Posts
    4,941
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputation
    786 (x8)

    That's what I've seen, too, M.O.M. I don't have all the models to run it exactly like that myself, but I've borrowed from friends and played about a dozen games with lists just like that. It's ... eye-opening, to say the least. IMHO, it's the most potent and flexible build you can make with Tau in 5th edition.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  5. #4
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Eastern PA, USA
    Age
    38
    Posts
    744
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    137 (x3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tz'arken View Post
    I see many people post about how Tau need many troops for 5th. Why? I'm not going to get into power gaming lists or anything but it seems many have not fully read the rules of Seize Ground nor Capture and Control. Yes you need troops to score but the thing people seem to over look is that you can also deny a scoring troop with any model. Now with how mobile most of are non scoring units are we can get away with out having many troops imo. I didn't make this post to say the only good Tau army is one with suit spam or w/e but just to point out there isn't one way to play Tau.
    You are assuming that we haven't read the rulebooks? How typical.

    Maybe you should go back and read the threads again because you obviously missed something. Check your facts before assuming that you are the only one who has read the rulebooks.

    Everyone knows that any unit can contest objectives. What good is contesting objectives if you can't hold at least one? If you don't hold at least one objective, the absolute best you can hope for is a draw, and a draw is not a win.
    Last edited by ZenGamer; July 20th, 2009 at 15:50.
    -Thread Killer Bryan
    Tyranid Hive Fleet Typhoeus
    T'au Empire, Bork'an Sept

  6. #5
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    York
    Age
    51
    Posts
    5,714
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    That's what I've seen, too, M.O.M. I don't have all the models to run it exactly like that myself, but I've borrowed from friends and played about a dozen games with lists just like that. It's ... eye-opening, to say the least. IMHO, it's the most potent and flexible build you can make with Tau in 5th edition.
    I am not saying the list mentioned is not decent (because I know it is, Piranhas or not ). However one thing always strikes me when I see this list. The inherent weakness of its minimised troops choices.

    In more balanced lists with more troops choices it is harder to stop the troops contingent but in the minimised list it is going to be quite easy to focus attacks on the troops and seriously damage the chances of the list winning.

    Targeting the Kroot is the key to beating this list and even if the small FW unit is in a DF once it is stopped the unit is vulnerable and because the unit is so small it is easy to drop.

    My list always has two near full FW squads in DF and two Kroot squads. This makes it near impossible to remove my troops presence on the field.If the opponent focuses on my Kroot the FW's are safer (in DF they are very safe anyway) and if they try for the FW then the Kroot are left to work. Either way it takes a lot to remove my troops, this cannot be said for the minimised list, the Kroot are a real liability in this list simply because they are the key to winning games and will therefore be targeted (or should be if an opponent has any sense)and nothing really exists to take this emphasis away (my FW presence helps my Kroot survive).

    Simply directing fire at the Kroot in the minimised list is going to seriously hurt the armies ability to win missions.

    I am interested to know why opponents are not doing this and if they are how is it stopped.
    Last edited by Rikimaru; July 20th, 2009 at 16:34.
    1984

  7. #6
    Member Tz'arken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Age
    26
    Posts
    86
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    2 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    You are assuming that we haven't read the rulebooks? How typical.

    Maybe you should go back and read the threads again because you obviously missed something. Check your facts before assuming that you are the only one who has read the rulebooks.

    Everyone knows that any unit can contest objectives. What good is contesting objectives if you can't hold at least one? If you don't hold at least one objective, the absolute best you can hope for is a draw, and a draw is not a win.

    Well I guess the word "many" means all now I don't know? I only made the post to point out to the people that say we need mad troops all the time that there isn't one way to play. And I'm not going to make a post just saying you don't need troops I'm going to back up my claim with some rules pointed out in the codex and 5th. Also the best you can hope for is not a draw if you don't contest any objectives as if you destroy their army you win.

  8. #7
    Member Tz'arken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Age
    26
    Posts
    86
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    2 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    I am not saying the list mentioned is not decent (because I know it is, Piranhas or not ). However one thing always strikes me when I see this list. The inherent weakness of its minimised troops choices.

    In more balanced lists with more troops choices it is harder to stop the troops contingent but in the minimised list it is going to be quite easy to focus attacks on the troops and seriously damage the chances of the list winning.

    Targeting the Kroot is the key to beating this list and even if the small FW unit is in a DF once it is stopped the unit is vulnerable and because the unit is so small it is easy to drop.

    My list always has two near full FW squads in DF and two Kroot squads. This makes it near impossible to remove my troops presence on the field.If the opponent focuses on my Kroot the FW's are safer (in DF they are very safe anyway) and if they try for the FW then the Kroot are left to work. Either way it takes a lot to remove my troops, this cannot be said for the minimised list, the Kroot are a real liability in this list simply because they are the key to winning games and will therefore be targeted (or should be if an opponent has any sense)and nothing really exists to take this emphasis away (my FW presence helps my Kroot survive).

    Simply directing fire at the Kroot in the minimised list is going to seriously hurt the armies ability to win missions.

    I am interested to know why opponents are not doing this and if they are how is it stopped.
    Well imo the more the opponent focuses the troops of this army and less he does of the suits the more you get to fire at him with the suits. A lot of times I see people bait with their kroot since the opponent knows there are few troops.

    The piont of that list is to win at all costs. It does that buy having an army with ifiltrating troops and units able to deepstrike and are highly mobil. I mean this army turn 2 can behind the enemys army. The reason FW aren't taken in a DF is becouse they have no scout move or infitrate so they will be generaly slower then the rest of the army.

  9. #8
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    The Village
    Posts
    4,941
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputation
    786 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    Simply directing fire at the Kroot in the minimised list is going to seriously hurt the armies ability to win missions.

    I am interested to know why opponents are not doing this and if they are how is it stopped.
    I thought it would be a problem, too, riki. But the ability to control board space is so amazing with this army build that you can dictate enemy movement options in a way that no other army can. Control where the enemy feels safe to go, and the game is already won.

    And the fewer points spent on Troops the more points you can spend on potency. Everybody knows that the most potent Tau units are Crisis suits and the heavy support slots. The fewer points you spend on Troops the more points you can devote to pure killing power.

    All I know is the armies I usually build -- somewhat similar to yours, perhaps, in that I usually field two full FW teams in Devilfish, one unit of Kroot (and in a big enough game, a 3rd unmounted unit of FWs) -- are actually more challenging for me to play and win with than the min-maxed list described earlier. The reason I learned that this is the case is because I didn't have as much ability to either keep the enemy at distance or to simply kill them before they got too close for comfort. The min-maxed list makes both of those critical tasks easier to accomplish.

    I'll be honest. After testing the build out, the reason I don't run it very often anymore is because it feels like cheating, fluff-wise. I can't stand seeing Tau lists with more Kroot units on the table than FWs, and I can't stand seeing measly 6-man units of FWs. (Unless you take like 4 of them, in which case it starts looking like a tactical choice.) However, I had to admit to myself that, speaking purely from a competitive gaming standpoint, the Tau army seems to run better "unfluffily" like that.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  10. #9
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    York
    Age
    51
    Posts
    5,714
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    I thought it would be a problem, too, riki. But the ability to control board space is so amazing with this army build that you can dictate enemy movement options in a way that no other army can. Control where the enemy feels safe to go, and the game is already won.

    And the fewer points spent on Troops the more points you can spend on potency. Everybody knows that the most potent Tau units are Crisis suits and the heavy support slots. The fewer points you spend on Troops the more points you can devote to pure killing power.

    All I know is the armies I usually build -- somewhat similar to yours, perhaps, in that I usually field two full FW teams in Devilfish, one unit of Kroot (and in a big enough game, a 3rd unmounted unit of FWs) -- are actually more challenging for me to play and win with than the min-maxed list described earlier. The reason I learned that this is the case is because I didn't have as much ability to either keep the enemy at distance or to simply kill them before they got too close for comfort. The min-maxed list makes both of those critical tasks easier to accomplish.

    I'll be honest. After testing the build out, the reason I don't run it very often anymore is because it feels like cheating, fluff-wise. I can't stand seeing Tau lists with more Kroot units on the table than FWs, and I can't stand seeing measly 6-man units of FWs. (Unless you take like 4 of them, in which case it starts looking like a tactical choice.) However, I had to admit to myself that, speaking purely from a competitive gaming standpoint, the Tau army seems to run better "unfluffily" like that.
    It makes me wonder how long this state of affairs will last. With experience against this list type the weaknesses will be exploited. Squadron rules will be more widely known with IG using them now and the importance of troops in 2/3rds of the missions is going to become more and more factored in to game play as more tournies are played under 5th rules.
    Tactics like this always do well until the opponents wise up (Rhino rush for instance) and this will be no different.
    I think you see this as well and I know you are a good player (despite our different approaches) and you see the value of troops in 5th. The FW unit in a DF is one of our main trump cards along with our heavy and crisis suits. I take 4 troops choices and I have no problem keeping them safe and I certainly do not lack in killing power.
    I go more for Markerlights and ranged firepower, whereas you seem to go more for blocking tactics (Piranhas and DF). I am not saying either is better all I know is my ML's improve my killing potential without having to sacrifice troops.
    1984

  11. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Age
    39
    Posts
    297
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    16 (x1)

    I often take 4 FW squads and 3 of them are minimum squads in a DF. I didn't used to make them min, but then I realized how seldom they actually come out to shoot, so what was the point of buying more when they on fired 1 or twice per game?

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts