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Forgive me if this topic has been covered, but I wanted to double check it for myself, now that I'm starting up a Dark Eldar force (again) for the Tale of Painters.
During the last game I played (a 2v2 game against a Khorne army and Eldar), I read through the rulebook and found an entry that I'm not positive used to exist. It didn't matter to me at the time, though, because it was a friendly game and I was playing as Tau Empire, so I didn't have any assault troops, but now that I'm moving into the realm of the Dark Eldar, it is a matter of grave importance.
Page 67 of the BRB:
'If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark ... but may not assault.'
This seems to be a bit of a problem for Raider heavy assault-based lists. How do you deliver your units, such as Wyches or support Warriors, to combat? If you move your Raider, even turning it on the spot, you may not assault that turn. It's less of an issue for my CSM friend, because even though his Berzerkers are all but useless in the shooting phase, they can at least withstand some damage by sitting it out in their Rhino with their MEQ stats. Dark Eldar, sadly, don't have that option, not with T3 and at best a 5+ save (not counting Incubi) and their open-topped transports.
Short of fielding a WWP list, what do you do to ensure your squads get into combat?
Being open topped allows DE to assault from raiders that have moved up to 12". This is generally how I work it through, though hugging cover and screening with grotesques can work too.
Scratch the main purpose of this thread, then, and let's shoot for....
When do you tend to try to get into combat? Do you focus on Raiders, WWPs, footsloggers, or a combination of two or more of those options?
I feel like the "Raider rush" type of list still holds true, but I'm curious to see what other types of units people field, including the "Large Assault squad" used by karantalsis in his stickied tactica (since that's my first ToP entry that I'm shooting for).
Cheers for that AE, I completely forgot about open-topped vehicles.
I don't use the WWP anymore, I find its too expensive for what it does. I take a mix of large footslogging squads, a raider squad or 2 and some small sniper squads. The footsloggers can generally get there fast enough due to fleet/having other more important targets. Basically by throwing enough small units at the enemy, some of its gonna stick!
Raiders, raiders, raiders, and when you think you have enough, add one more raider. With an all raider mounted army you will often find that you don't have to or even want to get to the enemy, you can simply shoot the bejesus out of him and assault what pitiful scraps remain. Against shootier armies you can just go full out at him and he'll be hard pressed to do something to all your raiders (8 for me at 1850) and you'll have a 4+ cover save to boot.
So it kinda looks like I spend the first turn or two rushing and assaulting in the 2nd or 3rd. The charges themselves are usually quite successful but it’s the aftermath that gets you squads killed. So generally I will prefer a late rush and give as little time as possible for the opponent to recover. Coming in piece-meal through the wwp or deepstriking most of your army will get them killed one by one – charging all at once appears to be the option for success. Put the elites or expendable units in front screening the more important raiders. What is important to you is your decision but “scoring units” are the ones I like to preserve.Yes, 6 raiders to split between “troop” and “elite” with an occasional foot squad. Foot squads do not last long and no matter how large I make them they die to shooting before the games end. If I play with 3 Talos then usually I can use a ravager as a raider and this means everyone is in a raider. I sincerely believe 5th edition has now added a 3rd dimension, shooting, assaulting and moving. We can do all 3 very well and sometimes I find that being as mobile as we are is more deadly than the other two – you can’t do that without using a lot of raiders.Do you focus on RaidersI feel the new rules for 5th really hurt the 4th edition method of deploying the wwp. True-line-of-sight, new IC rules and new methods of entering the game (outflanking, teleporting, drop-podding, etc.,) have all made carrying the portal beyond the first turn a dangerous risk. By turn 2 the enemy can pretty much be in assault with you or get every gun within range – in 4th this was not possible and as I see it most games are still using 4th edition terrain that do not hide things well.WWPs,
The other option is to drop the portal in the 1st turn. To me I find that 2 of the mission setups do not really need the portal to begin with. Do I really want to drop the portal on the first turn in a pitched battle? Am I really getting my 100 points worth dropping a portal on the edge of my deployment zone? Heck, even in the other two deployments (spearhead and dawn of war) I find spearhead really doesn’t even need a portal strategy and Dawn of War would only make a difference if you were going first or not. A little not worth it in my eyes even if I got both portals down – I ask myself, could I have been better off just placing everything down or just use “reserves” instead? I know in spearhead that coming from reserves is an awesome thing when you are practically entering the game from behind him.I mentioned what I thought above. I can handle one foot slogging group but when I run 2 or more then I have to include them into a strategy that is going to keep them alive. If you are going to rush all your raiders forward and let a squad or two on foot run into position that will be fine for the first couple of turns as they are kept busy by the advancing raiders. I suppose their only advantage is that they are only one kill point is plus but I often find the lone empty raider a good “contesting” unit that can take away an enemy “claimed” objective away (from 24” away) for a turn (hopefully on the last turn).footsloggers,
"On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]
I use a combination of raiders and large assault squads. I think I would used raiders if I had more but sadly I have two and I am going to be bringing back an old proxy for my wyches.
With largish squads and lots of them I can usually get enough into either rapid fire range or into assault to make an impact.
Having warp beasts and one warrior squad and wyches and incubi mounted and getting into assault quickly really does help my warrior live to capture objectives.
Prey they don't take you alive
[QUOTE=Lost Nemesis;1518811 shooting for).
Cheers for that AE, I completely forgot about open-topped vehicles.[/QUOTE]
Yes it's a bit convoluted but I would like to think that the real quote is “If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark ... but may not assault……unless.’
And the ‘unless’ is found on page 70 “Open topped vehicles follow the normal rules, with the exceptions and additions given below.” “The passengers of an open topped vehicle may assault…..”
Another addition is the speed limit of fast transport vehicles that have moved or are going to move flat out in that movement phase [12” and upwards, again page 70] that denies disembarking.
But I agree with the others here, at the moment the Raider rush is our best option until the new Codex comes out and perhaps the portal will get its rules brushed up to become more viable.
Last edited by Wicky; August 4th, 2009 at 00:01.
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
sorry to dumb it down as I don't get to play 40k much and I normally play IG (which doesn't have opened topped transport vehicles anymore)
you can assault out of OpenTopped vehicles if you have moved under 12" (otherwise it's 6" and under right?)
You can still only shoot out of a vehicle if it's moved 6" and under right? or does the open-topped or fast vehicle rule override this?
Destructors and horror/terrorfexes count as heavy or light weapons for the purpose of moving and shooting from vehicles?
If a regular non-open topped vehicle moves at all, even just to turn in place, you may not assault at all. You may disembark, you may shoot (counting as having moved), but you may not assault, unless it's got some special rule specific to that vehicle.
Full rules for open-topped vehicles may be found on page 70 of the BRB, as Wicky referenced above.
Regarding horrorfexes, etc., they do not count as defensive weapons so are going to be counted as main weapons, I believe. Otherwise (for the infantry versions of weapons) they count the same as they regularly do.